“You can’t live according to ideals you don’t actually live by. Do you lie to yourself or not? Do you make money?”--Les Visible
The argument for socialism goes against history and every attempt to make it work.
The argument for socialism goes against reason by appeals to emotion.
The argument for socialism goes against human nature and the quest for liberty and self responsibility.
The argument for socialism contains an inherent need for a powerful state apparatus acting as the nanny.
The argument for socialism demands conformity, uniformity, and regimentation. For needs to be fulfilled efficiently, needs must be homogenized and leveled.
The opposite of socialism is not capitalism, it is the free market model sans capitalization. It is unregulated trade.
Unregulated trade does not equate to unregulated products; safety, honest business practice, etc.
Unregulated trade in the free market need not necessarily lead to private ownership of utilities, and infrastructure. Local government has a place in such industries as; fire departments, police, water district, electricity, mass transport systems [bus or rail].
Unregulated trade need not embrace corporatism, the use of a fictitious entity can be regulated by statute, and charters limited.
The rise in corporatism in the US was a judicial slight of hand and unconstitutional, when corporations were granted “personhood” [Santa Clara v Southern Pacific]
Unregulated trade does not mean putting up with usury and the counterfeit “money” syndicate. It is the responsibility of Congress to regulate weights and measures of precious metals.
The government has no mandate to generate wealth under the Constitution, only the responsibility to create a level playing field free of criminal activity {malum in se}.
Central planning cannot be exacting to the needs for production. A national economy is overwhelmingly complex.
Profit is incentive, one that withers in a socialist regime.
Competition encourages innovation and ingenuity. Under socialism the only outlet for ingenuity is political intrigue.
In closing, Monopoly Capitalism is not a “free market”, the use of this term in a monopoly capitalist market is simply Newspeak. What has not been attempted since the end of the republic is actual free trade. Socialism has been tried countless times, in fact the present system in America today is a synthesis of corporatist monopoly socialism and communitarianism.
And this, is a police state.
A government given the responsibility to care for a peoples every vital need—MUST be given the power to carry such a task out, which means the power to rule your every vital action. This is the very definition of TYRANNY.
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Red-baiting! Straw-man!
ReplyDeleteTo go through it point by point: nope. nope. nope. wrong (resembles #2). not really. "libertarian" drivel. in what universe? that IS socialism. getting closer. meaningless. inaccurate. more "libertarian" drivel. even more LD. In closing, newspeak double plusgood.
Socialism has had 150 years to evolve. "Libertarianism?"
Ayn Rand! Ayn Paul! Ayn drivel!
Unregulated trade "need not" be unregulated trade?
Been down that nasty road before... and so has this guy: http://world.std.com/~mhuben/discuss.html Apparently, so had Einstein: http://www.monthlyreview.org/598einstein.php
Nice try though. Right out of "Atlas Shrugged." However, you may want to read what socialists are saying today: http://www.wsws.org/about.shtml
Your famous reading comprehension skills have been highly over rated.
ReplyDeletePoint of note: unregulated trade, does NOT mean not regulating criminal enterprise, monopoly and unconstitutional corprate 'personhood'. It does not mean there is no assurance of quality controles of products meant for consumption. Such regulations fall out of the perview of 'planned economics'.
I already know what socialists are saying today, and THAT is the Newspeak in the party. Yes you Utopians are headed for serfdom, and I'm not about to join the gang. Happy trails comrade Waldo.
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L'repeat petite:
ReplyDeleteI’ve noticed that you never actually say anything Waldo. It’s handwave and then nonsensical rhymes…rather autistic d’cute.
But then, you are a delightfully funny character {grin}
From your link Waldo:
THE WORLD SOCIALIST WEBSITE
The World Socialist Web Site is published by the International Committee of the Fourth International, the leadership of the world socialist movement, the Fourth International founded by Leon Trotsky in 1938.
The standpoint of this web site is one of revolutionary opposition to the capitalist market system. Its aim is the establishment of world socialism. It maintains that the vehicle for this transformation is the international working class, and that in the twenty-first century the fate of working people, and ultimately mankind as a whole, depends upon the success of the socialist revolution.
Leon Trotsky (born Lev Davidovich Bronstein -- Zionist and Communist -- leading butcher
of the Bolshevik Revolution who later, after breaking with Stalin, planned the gradual
subversion, degradation and overthrow of American bourgeois society from his
stronghold in Mexico until a day in 1940 when Ramon Mercader put an ice pick through
his skull. )
Trotsky said of Russia:
" - We should turn Her (Russia) into a desert populated with white Niggers We will impose
upon them such a tyranny that was never dreamt by the most hideous despots of the
East. The peculiar trait of that tyranny is that it will be enacted from the left rather than the
right and it will be red rather than white in color."
What a hateful little shit this Trotsky, aye.
And let it not be forgotten that Leo Strauss was originally a Trotskyite cockspittle himself...and the original 'neocon” nursery maid, spawning such majordomos as Kristol the elder and
the younger, and all the asswipes of the New American Century crowd--who brought the US 9/11 and the new brutal paradigm of der Homeland. America could use a legion of Mercaders and a grand cache of icepicks.
That is your sweet home socialism skullface.
"America could use a legion of Mercaders and a grand cache of icepicks."
ReplyDeleteNow who is advocating such shocking violence.
hypocrite?
Rope is better, and would be legalised in needful cases.
One wonders, after the Gatto piece got 55 comments on the merits(or demerits) of socialism and the author of this post made a whopping 18 of said comments, he feels a need to continuing beating the horse.
ReplyDeleteWP sums it up perfectly: libertarian drivel
Should be titled, "Atlas Farted"
Nationalize the energy sector for starters, then lets take back our airwaves.
Our beautiful, miraculous planet cannot take much more capitalism.
True human nature is cooperation, peace and love. I know your poor brainwashed intellect has been fed the contrary. Think though. Why have we been taught that Darwin can explain everything? Individuality is all well and good but it makes for a shitty religion. But the overlords have convinced you to do their bidding.
So, now you can continue calling me names, its all you got. That and quoting your masters.
it was late- i had no time to rehash so many things said before- mostly during the "libertarian" Ron-Paul kult kraze.
ReplyDeleteexcept there is "libertarian socialism: http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libsoc.html
: "Socialism, in it's traditional and true definition, means "'he workers democratic ownership and/or control of the means of production'."
http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/
there is also "green socialism" or eco-socialism-
http://www.ecosocialistnetwork.org/
"The Marxist viewpoint simply means that, until the working majority sets the rules of the political and economic game, any gains in such battles are provisional and vulnerable to cooption and reversal."
http://www.dsp.org.au/node/85
You with us so far? Or am I "not saying anything?" Workers-control/ own-means of production. Subject. Verb. Hm- seems to be all there. The verb-adjective interchangeability of the word "own" was deliberate.
Now: straw man- you set up positions you attribute to "socialists" that don't exactly exist- and then you attack them.
Red Baiting: same old Cold War propaganda filtered through nouveau-"objectivism." "socialism" DOES NOT mean "government controls everything." This simplistic-propaganda position flatly ignores post-Marxist synthesis.
"Headed for serfdom?" Fact is- we are already there... and have been there for 10,000 years. We just stopped being agro-serfs and started being industrial-serfs a few hundred years ago. This is what BOTH Adam Smith and Karl Marx were trying to address.
Isn't it time to revise BOTH paradigms?
Most "libertarians" don't bother. It's usually "gummint BAAAAD," and since in the US there IS no "gummint," I tend to dismiss this. How do you define the "collective?" Simply say- like Magpie Thatcher- that it doesn't exist? Well she was certainly Prime Minister of SOMETHING that involved more than one individual, wasn't she?
The super-ironic part of your canned rant is this: it was created and exists on one of the best examples of post-Marx socialism and open-source green economics: the web.
YOU may say it's an example of "unregulated trade" and the "free market model," both meaningless terms. It's unregulated... except when it's regulated. It's free... except when it's not. Doubleplusgood. And WHO (or what) decides? How do you define the "collective?" THAT is the key question... the relationship between the individual and the collective.
What we have here is a fuss over labels... or... sifting gnat-shit out of the pepper.
Nice Waldo. If I ran the circus(coto.com) this would be the new # 18
ReplyDeleteBut I, as some may've guessed, want to move beyond the different historical interpretations.
ReplyDeleteEinstein didn't have the internet. Marx could only dream of a planet where every worker can be connected by cell phone(equipped w/camera, web connected).
Our new socialism, post the dawning of TRUTH, will truly be a people's socialism.
We are a collective. Deal with it. Individuality was a passing American fad, bread on genocide, slavery and the stealing of land.
Humanity knows better. We know how to flurish and thrive as a whole. And we will. Corporations will be remembered as a short lived pusstilent boil on Mother Earth's buttocks.
Yes, call me a bee, hive jokes and all.....................................................ok, feel better? Did putting me down help aleviate your fear?
Love is a real physical force. We are all one in more than a poetic or metaphorical way.
"Nationalize the energy sector for starters, then lets take back our airwaves."
ReplyDeleteExactly! Local utilities under local control. It USED to be that way... and the FCC USED to prevent media-monopolies rather than creating them.
"Privatization" has worked out really well, hasn't it?
Naturally, the Randies will blame "the gummint" which is now just a fig-newton of their cookie-cutter imagination.
Oh yeah... and the Paulitos DID go to the Rubicon Convention to "make their voices heard."
ReplyDeletehttp://cotocrew.wordpress.com/2009/08/06/is-ron-paul-a-socialist/
And THAT worked out really well, didn't it?
I did not read the piece I am going to recommend before my lengthy comment above -- but it substantiates my own position, and I Highly Recommend you read it in it's entirety:
ReplyDeleteThe Purpose Behind Engineered Economic Collapse
by Giordano Bruno
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/08.10/purpose.html
First, Boomer... a major premise in this link is flat-out WRONG, ie. "...Communism is based on the belief that man is so weak... (that he) requires the rule of strong masters." What Engels ACTUALLY SAID was: "...to impart to the now oppressed proletarian class a full knowledge of the conditions and of the meaning of the momentous act it is called upon to accomplish..."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm
Was the ideal co-opted by Stalinism and the Party-boys in the Kremlin? Of course! But that in no way expresses the ideal. And to contrast "communism" as the opposite of "democracy" is just plain silly. "Communism," at it's heart is total democracy... and we have discussed the true function of a "republic."
And speaking of "Utopian daydreams are fuzzy feelgoods, but not realistic by any stretch:"
"Perhaps immediate and complete Boycotts of Assholes by the consuming masses (ala free market capitalism, supply/demand) might just work to crush the predator corporations..." Yeah right. Bought any Stealth Bombers lately? In a way, Engels was right: "...full knowledge..." which is daunting... but way easier and more effective than trying to get people to "boycott Wal Mart."
In my opinion, the rumormill news author (I can't refer back to it now because it has been blocked as a "reported attack site." hmmmmm...) is some tweedle who was thoroughly brainwashed with Cold War "definitions" and has never bothered to read "The Manifesto" for himself.
The "proletarian revolution" has happened... is happening... and WiLL happen (again) in the US... where it will be most likely co-opted (again) by the same porks with the same severe results.
"So what happens? Every man better take care of himself. That’s called independence." No... that's called LOOTING. And the porks have made it legal for them... lethal for YOU.
Fact is, when things get tight... yes, there are looters... but generally, people have a greater tendency to pull together and help each other.
"Come on, America! Let’s start rewarding true excellence and stop rewarding incompetence, cronyism and failure."
I wonder whothehell this tweedle is talking to.
" To blame the very concept of Capitalism for our current dire circumstances is not only naïve, it is dangerous." Maybe.
ReplyDeleteBut it continues to boggle my mind how the Paulistas are careful to point out "the concept of Capitalism" as opposed to "rigged markets," but can't quite grasp the "the concept of Socialism" as opposed to "rigged collectives."
...makes it VERY difficult to take them seriously.
The essence of people working together is a common-sense goal, agreed. For some it is a tendency, for others, it impedes their lawless tendencies. I can see that, of course.
ReplyDeleteCertainly, one of the chief problems is everything gets co-opted, whatever ism we're talking about. Guarding against that imperative. I threw the boycott idea out as an example of people working together to overcome the co-opter predators. Simplistic, and you hammered it, but none-the-less we need more it, not less.
I don't view the Independence tag as meaning looters or any such thing. Again, there are good people and bad. I just don't want a top down police state dictating. People can handle most of their squabbles themselves it they'd get a clue and man-up. Perhaps a little more vigilante justice and retribution, instead of looking for the jack boots to come intervene. Then, the corrupt courts get involved and the spiral to nowhere starts.
I'm just a simple soul. All your 'isms' are terminology over my head: this person said this and that, tother chap said something else. They all say and say and say. But so what?
ReplyDeleteI am talking about physical crooks that have to be taken down.
I am talking about abolishing the Trusts and their fictitious contents, abolishing banking malpractice, and abolishing or totally regulating the fiction of finance.
I am talking about dismantling corrupt government.
I am talking about abolishing corporatism.
I am talking about producing and distributing essentials to satisfy need.
I am talking about educating folks to help themselves.
I am talking about enabling local communities to decide what they should do.
These are simple practical things devoid of unnecessary terminology and jawing.
Call it common sense, but please don't start 'ism-ing'.
And I think all these things can be done in an orderly way, starting with clearing out the corrupt governments of the world.
"...if they’d get a clue and man-up," which is exactly what Engels was saying.
ReplyDeleteI think we are agreed that any bullshit "ism" can be co-opted by the porks to keep the same-ol-same-ol top-down pyramid scam.
Of course... when you speak of "lawless tendencies" you're talking about (yeeek!) "Statism." Who makes "laws?" And if we just shoot people for being assholes (without any "due process")... ain't that "anarchy?" And the "very concept" of "Anarchism" aint so bad either.
What grinds my grits is people flinging around abstractions willy-nilly (ya hear that, willy?) and don't "get a clue" of what the abstractions really represent.
"Hey hey- Jack the Bear"
Flak, Those are all good things to accomplish in an orderly manner or disorderly. And yes, it will take a collective effort to clean out the outhouse.
ReplyDeleteWaldo, the silverbear piece had some good stuff in it. For sure, everything we imbibe we must distill.
...bein a bear of very little brain (and I AiNT JACK) meself... it do knit my knickers to keep using the word "socialism" instead of "common-fucking-sense."
ReplyDeleteThat's what WE were trying to say anyway...
Go Ginger.............bring on the bonfire, and the spleef
ReplyDeleteA rhetorical asside as made there is a far cry from your efforts to organize, and put up funds for hit squads.
ReplyDeleteNow this is the very type of comment I would expect from you Flak, emmotional jabberwacky and no substance. In otherwords "shockingly" shallow, which seems the mentality of most of you comrades gathered here with your stones.
Thank you for fulfilling my expectations.
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Again, nothing from you Camus. Not a single counter argument, simply more rhetorical "to the barricades".
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't need to call you names, you have made clear your ignorance of history and lack of critical thinking by yourself.
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Waldo,
ReplyDeleteWhat you don't seem to understand is that I understand every point you are trying to make there--I grasp the hoped for "goals" of socialism. What I am pointing out is that they are utopian and in the practical world of human beings PROVEN time and again to be unacheivable.
What is hoped for here is justice, fairness, and it is my contention that nothing but personal liberty and a government that guarantees it will bring justice.
It is not the hopes and wishes for a better more equitable world are bad, as you three seem to make out that is my position, it is that historically such naive hopes have turned into dystopian nightmares every time they have been attempted.
"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
It is pointed out here that we are already serfs. Indeed this is so, this is a police state, and it became such precisely by the pie in the sky promises of lying leaders with links to your glorious socialist brotherhood. In otherwords this dystopia we now inhabit is the result and synthesis of the very theories you propound, repackaged for the next generation of fools to experience.
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"Yes, call me a bee, hive jokes and all……………………………………………..ok, feel better? Did putting me down help aleviate your fear?"--Camus
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, I thought you were a teacher with some sophistication and knowledge on the topic of socialism.
http://www.marioverandi.de/works/bee.html
Maurice Maeterlink´s classic scientific text La Vie des Abeilles from 1901 is regarded as many people as an allegorical tale predicting the Great War.
Your complaint about corporations is a dead give away, that you are so ignorant of history it wrenches the gut to have a back and forth with you.
ReplyDeleteYES, Amerika Inc. is the enemy, because it usurped America the Republic.
But indeed its like talking to a brick arguing with you--what grade do you "teach" kindergarten?
You really are a charmer, aren't you.
ReplyDeleteExcuse me asking this, but I and perhaps the many other readers from around the world who evidently visit this COTO site, would like to know whether you consider yourself a typical American, with your sense of fairness, your constraint, your objectivity, your natural courtesy and above all your restrained and modest impartiality.
Your opinion will of course be highly valued as an appreciation of how we should consider an American, and all that must mean to us.
I agree with these points--but that ain't socialism, that's the way it was in the republic.
ReplyDeleteIf you focussed you would realize all of your complaints are against CRIMINALITY not personal liberty and a republic of fair and equitable laws.
We aren't in this mess because of following the Constitution, we are in this mess because it has been subverted and perverted by the Money Powers.
It is the same Money Powers who promoted Marx and the Reds that took over Russia. This is historical fact whether you deny it or not.
Rothschild runs your International no less than he runs this nation.
And whather you reconized it or not, for the most part you are; "nope, nope nope noping" again in these responses--not speaking to practical means to achieve your ends, but mearly stating that they should be achieved.
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“Privatization” has worked out really well, hasn’t it?--Waldo
ReplyDeleteAgain...you equate the criminality of corporatism and the Money Powers to the principles they subverted...THAT is the "straw man argument".
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But it continues to boggle my mind how the Paulistas are careful to point out “the concept of Capitalism” as opposed to “rigged markets,” but can’t quite grasp the “the concept of Socialism” as opposed to “rigged collectives.” -Waldo
ReplyDeleteYou have it here in a nutshell if you would just consider what you said here.
It is the fact that there ARE the riggers--The money powers who can rig anything either by buying people off, blackmailing them, threatening--all the usual mafioso techneques--ANY system can be taken down--until the real enemy is grasped and understood.
The only problem with your equation is that collectives don't need to be "rigged" to fail--human nature takes care of that. And again, a study of the historical attempts makes this perfectly clear.
Having the people take over the oil corporations and the television networks is "nothing"......duly noted
ReplyDeleteyes we are in a police state because of some nebulous connection from Trotsky to Strauss to the neo-cons. That is THE REASON we are living in a police state.
ReplyDeleteFrom a quick web search:
Finally, if the attempts to link neoconservatives to Strauss and Trotsky are based on misidentification and misconstruction, the fact that both linkages have been made--in some cases by the same writer--is stranger still. For it would be hard to come up with a more disparate pair of thinkers. Strauss's mission was to take us back by means of contemplation to the nearly lost past of classical antiquity. Trotsky's was to lead mankind by means of violent action to an unprecedented new society. The one aimed to rescue philosophy from ideology; the other was the consummate ideologue. How, exactly, does neoconservatism bear the earmarks of both of these projects simultaneously? No one has attempted to explain.
You should probably just give up and stop embarassing yourself
I am not here to "charm" anyone Flack.
ReplyDeleteAs harsh as I can be I stand on reason, which unfortunately is no longer a typical American trait. So no I am not a "typical American". In fact I consider the 'typical' American to be a TVZombie--a brainwashed, dumbed down idiot due to social engineering.
I do not consider myself impartial--far from it, I am a champion of Liberty and Justice, and I refuse to be politically correct, modest, or restrained in my defense of these principles.
As far as the "us and them" of it Flak, I have cut a rather brilliant line as to who is and is not in my "us" and who I consider traitors to the American principles.
I am a gentleman in the company of other gentleman--I am a harsh critic when among fools.
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"WP sums it up perfectly: libertarian drivel"..Camus
ReplyDeleteYou confuse classical liberalism [as opposed to neo-liberalism] with 'Libertarian', which is a political party based on a twisted reading of economics and politics both.
And to your second note--regaining control of the republic by "the People" and re-establishing Law under the Constitution with the goal of recapturing the airwaves, and crushing monopolies is NOT socialism. It is getting back to the American roots of Liberty and Justice.
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Stauss is directly linked to Trotskeism historically whether you deny it or not.
ReplyDeleteYour "quick web searches" do not negate my years of historical reserach.
Your jejune remarks fail to "embarass" me.
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Throughout all of the comments here, all the ping pong jaberwacky back and forth--not one attempt to address the core issue of the error of state socialism:
ReplyDeleteA government given the responsibility to care for a peoples every vital need—MUST be given the power to carry such a task out, which means the power to rule your every vital action. This is the very definition of TYRANNY.
Only Liberty can supply Justice... and it is a just world that all agree we seek. Again I appeal to the principles of the republic as stated in the Declaration of Independence.
Chatter on as you will--this remains my stance.
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“The intellectual world is still locked into a phony verbal battle between "left" and "right," whereas the real struggle is the battle between individual freedom and the encroaching power of the absolute State.”
ReplyDelete--Sutton
THE BIRTH OF COMMUNISM AND ZIONISM
Moses Hess (1812-1875)
Moses Hess was born in Bonn, Germany and died in Paris, France. He was practiced Orthodox
Judaism but broke away and embraced the Kabbalah. In 1837, he anonymously published his
first book, “The Holy History of Mankind,” which revealed his ideas on anarchic socialism. In
1841, he founded the radical newspaper, “Rheineische Zeitung.” In 1842 he promoted Karl Marx, a German Jew to chief editor. Hess introduced Marx to the Freemasons and to communism. In 1844, Hess introduced Marx to the German Jew Friedrich Engels.
Moses Hess is considered the father of two political movements: communism and Zionism. He
was buried in Cologne, Germany, but in 1961 his remains were re-buried in the graveyard of
Kineret (Lake of Galilee, Israel) next to the graves of other founders of the modern Zionist
socialist movement.
The writings of Hess promoted that outside of Judaism the following should happen:
No person should own any private property. (land, house, car, furniture, etc)
All humans should be moved into a classless society that is ruled by a group outside the law.
In order to force people into one classless society, it may be necessary to incite different groups against each other to prevent them from working together and destroying the very fabric of
current society.
To force a socialistic revolution using Judaism, racial strife and the battle between different
classes in society.
A Socialist must embrace Internationalism, with the exception of Jews, there should be no
patriotism. Only Jews should be patriotic about Israel.
"There is no proletarian, not even a Communist, movement, that has not operated in the interests of money, in the direction indicated by money, and for the time being permitted by money -- and that without the idealists among its leaders having the slightest suspicion of the fact."--Oswald Spengler,
I maintain my stance as well, that ceding complete control to some "power" elite ends up with tyranny every time. We're sitting here stewing in the juices of a version of it right now, and have been since 1913 and before.
ReplyDeleteIt seems the socialism pluggers are advocating some kinder, gentler version (tyranny lite? or free) so our wires are crossed as to exactly the form they're purporting to support.
I think a true free market, with about the smallest seed of government possible would work the best for mankind. Every time a people bend over and agree to taxation to support representative government (or monarchy or whatever), they end up getting exploited, and the entire shebang corrupts into authoritarian elite feudalism -- which I abhor.
I am with you here Boomer.
ReplyDeleteNone of them have any idea of what socialism actually is. Like FLak says in his last post--he comes on here squaking about my critique of socialism, the ends up panning "isms", which is the first correct attitutde he has shown.
He wants a 'practical solution'...as I have stated over and again, the founders of the original republic were the most practical men to ever grace the planet.
It was the people of the US themselves who gave up their vigilance to the liberty they had, falling for the traps laid by the Money Power.
The American Revolution was fought against the 'Crown', that very money power that we all despise--The French Revolution was designed and sparked by the conspiracy of the Money Power, which began the whole march towards 'socialism/communism'--this is verifiable history--history that my critics here refuse to acknowledge in their naive posturing and yada yada.
To teach, the forty plus year course of historical study I have made, in a blog back and forth is obviously impossible--but reason itself would be a good beginning, if they could get beyond their whining over the insults I admittidly have thrown their way. They attempt to protect their egos rather than stand to reason, thus they stand stubborn in their own ignorance.
Man is the same creature he has been from the beginnings of our species--nothing has changed but our technology.
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Thank you Puddy for putting up the photo of the psychopath killer that is the hero of these poor deluded souls.
ReplyDeleteLet's face the truth guys, unless man evolves into a less greedy, more generous & giving species, neither socialism nor a "free market" (no such thing) will ever become reality.
ReplyDeleteTo me, these arguments are purely philosophical and fun to bandy about with but we all know neither of these systems will work with the variety of humans we have to work with today. Corruption will always win out :)
Trotsky looks just like a kid my son used to hang around with in that picture.
PD.. stunning google header !!!!
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you find interest in yin-yang. This diologue is an exorcism of COTO principle and an exercise in futility.
ReplyDeleteI am glad you have the stamina to play badminton with the lefties and righties. I thought OPED Spews would have burned you out on the game.
Anyway it keeps the Einsteins and Debs busy. Though they have some insight, until they read Allen and Skousen they'll continue on with a rosy view of the global governance NEW WORLD ORDER.
Their mentors and heroes never starved in academialand, it was funded by the state through the capitalists who wanted to make more widgets.
Thank you comrade :)
ReplyDeleteI've got to keep my eye on the professors.
roguroid, Your famous historical analysis skills have been highly over rated. (by YOU, I believe).
ReplyDeleteComing a bit unhinged, are we? Hm. Dishes it out but can't take it?
"None of them have any idea of what socialism actually is." And YOU DO? Could you please inform all those silly post-Marx synthesis scholars all over the world? It would save them a lot of work! No doubt they would stand in awe of your erudite combination of Robespierre and Roger Rabbit with a dash of de Gobineau. While you're at it, be sure to quote "Protocols" to them.
Oh wait... I forgot... they're all Zionist Trotskyite murdering psychopath Jew-Statists. Never mind.
"...not one attempt to address the core issue of the error of state socialism"
oh... STATE-socialism. Well, why didn't you say so? And what "state" would that be? Rhode Island? Panic? Grace? China? (who I'm sure will be shocked to learn they are really Zionist Jews)
"...who gave up their vigilance to the liberty they had, falling for the traps laid by the Money Power." Indeed they did. So did you. Could you please watch Adam Curtis documentary "The Trap" (if you haven't already) and absorb it into your Beautiful Mind? http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/trap3.php
It's all about the "mathematical" Cold-War paranoia cooked up by "pragmatists" from Bernays to Nash to show that the "collective" was "against human nature" (whatever THAT is). Somebody should have told the Iroquois League that "...collectives don’t need to be “rigged” to fail–human nature takes care of that."
Yep, that is, when some OTHER collective wants to come along and take your shit. Can you say, "Social Darwinism" Sure you can! I believe the "National Socialists" had a handle on that one. And to them, "Protocols" was the Gospel Truth!
"You prove all of the points I have made brilliantly." umm... uh... "They attempt to protect their egos rather than stand to reason, thus they stand stubborn in their own ignorance." yes... well... ummm...
...never mind.
Paddy Lad!
ReplyDeleteThe Clue Train just stopped by... and left a PACKAGE for ya!
hm... it says, "we ALREADY HAVE 'global governance NEW WORLD ORDER.' and it ain't rosy... except for the puckered bud-hole yer sittin' on wot we is crammin' the washing-done MONUMENT in wid all da pyramid-eyes cons-tit-tuition liver-tree an all that shite" Signed, yer pals- the "Rothsfellers!"
Hey boyo- don't be killin the messenger, now. I jus make deliveries... I don't drive the fekkin TRAIN... which ye won't be able to see no more once the rEVOLution caboose disappears as yer Ancient Order Sphinx slams shit.
Just sayin, now... just sayin.
Old ideas do not interest me. In the past, yes, collectives had to worry about others taking their shit.
ReplyDeleteFor like the eleventeenth in a few days.....the new socialism will be a TRUE PEOPLE'S SOCIALISM completely unlike anything described in your dusty old books.
Step the fuck outta the ivory tower. This is going to be a planetary collective. I know, sounds very scary, right. You have been programmed to find the idea scary. So were your parents. So were your grandparents.
Lots of intentional bullshit has been spewed just to throw us off the ONLY thing the elite fear:
the masses uniting against them
they fear nothing else. so they create a lot of false scholars, pretend movements, even fake countries(Soviet Union)
But, the masses will unite. I am not a complete optimist. In fact I think there is a 99.9% chance we will not get it done until AFTER some very, very fucked up shit goes down.
But, that one-tenth percent chance is what gets me out in the street, spreading 9/11 Truth....our last chance lifeline.
You are exactly right, DR. Once boned up the azz by the Wishing-Tome Manual-Mint, even the densest fuck will get a fucking clue.
ReplyDeleteWhen that happens, I predict "pResident Palin" (...around with Terrists) to ride in on the ass-paper of the rEVOLution. Then it's happy-boxcar-ride time for Zionists, poinny-hedded-inneleckshals and Librulz.
However, If Jesus Christ Herself would float down out of the clouds and offer irrefutable inside-job evidence of a Mossad-engineered false-flag, the bearded ones would stop bobble-heading at the waist, throw away their cute little forehead top-hats and start singing Amerikkka da Judah-full at the top of their lungs.
The stone-heads would swaller it like a dollar... and keep up the boxcar stuffin and the Krema puffin. Them panty-waist critics are always the first to fall to the scape-goat Saturnalia... be they Rorschach, Romani, Christian, Pagen or Joo. You don't need no ticket... just say, "I told you so."
Yes, the Proletarian Revolution is a done deal. 100 hours? 100 years? Who knows?
You sure told him. Now where are those ice-picks ?
ReplyDeletePut this guy's link in your Law bag, to refer to in the future. He has had to move out of the U.S. to protect himself and his family because of his writings...
ReplyDeleteThe Writings of "S"
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/government/corporate_u_s/news.php?q=1237229836
"For like the eleventeenth in a few days…..the new socialism will be a TRUE PEOPLE’S SOCIALISM completely unlike anything described in your dusty old books."--Camus
ReplyDeleteYea...fucking hilarious, meet the new boss, same as the old boss, but you won't find out until its all over--AGAIN.
What was the plague in Camus' book of that title? There is a clue here for your spinning dervish bullshit. Look at yourself and see what it is.
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After reading all this I feel like a referee at a ping-pong match. i can shut all yalls asses up. The USA is the largest and most successful socialist nation in the history of the world. No other commie utopia has had food-stamps,section 8,CHIPS,medicare,medicade,free telephones for the wets,free cars with free insurance,free education,college grants etc etc. This little collective has even made the fats fatter and the have-nots have had. Its the middle-class that is getting the shit in this little commie utopia. The truncheon and the cattle prod if you get to uppity and complain. You can have all this commie shit,just give Me freedom to do what I want and keep your little red paws out of My pocket or you might lose them. Libertarian and proud in Texas.
ReplyDeleteHOO HOO Komrade Korn! Is always krackink up Komrade Waldo!
ReplyDeleteNow lissen op: Ice Pix is DIGITAL. Is mekkink copies- Ne Problem! Get with times, Kamrade Korn! Like Glorious Garden Forks- is DIGITAL. Yoo give digit while pig-boy Bamski does light-pole dance on end of Glorious Collective Hemp Rope from Glorious Workers' Redneck Trailer on Potomac-Dascha Grounds! Mebbe use hoses...YOUR IDEA!
PEOPLE'S HERO- Kamrade Korn!
HOO HOO... "Libertarian!" "Texas!" As always... PEOPLE'S HERO- Kamrade Korn! "hank-Hill Boy" HAW! Is DELIGHTFUL. TRUE Proletariat!
ReplyDelete"Pockets?" Nyet- old deluded past-time Kamrade Korn. NO POCKETS on Glorious Peoples' Uniform we give you after REVOLUTION. Unless you wish to stand fuzzy-bunn nekked in mosquito bog. In hotness after we take big-bucket Capitalist-pig heat-pump to make Glorious Rain-Catchment System. Unless you want PINK HAIR-DRESSER RAY!
Best yoo LISTEN to KOMMISAR WALDO, Kamrade Korn!
Right on Korn,
ReplyDeleteJust as I have said in so many words--this IS socialism right here right now, and the whole jig at this point is offing the middle class. In the agenda a long time and just now rolling like the cannonball express.
This is what the "economic crisis" is all about, the BIG RIPOFF leaving the elites holding all, and the serfs holding nada.
But of course, according to our 'comrades' here, this isn't part of Central Planning by their socialist dreamweavers. But me? I'm just a "Red baiter"....you bet your ass I am--fuck you reds.
Hows that for some impolite language Hacky twinkle toes? You gotta problem wit dat Camusinstien? How 'bout you Waldorf??? yea yea yea fuck y'all and the Marx you rode in on.
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Folks ...we are all passionate. We think diff, we feel about stuff diff, we hurt diff, we rail diff, we love diff and as this thread of comments shows, we can very easily lose sight of "our" humanity.
ReplyDeleteI suggest a bowl of empathy with a stream of compassion is due.
Don't get me wrong....do not trade in your truth, just remember we all have some.
I love this place.
Today on this thread, not so much.
peace
Thanks Boomer,
ReplyDeleteI downloaded a pdf of TRADING WITH THE ENEMY. I have it in paperback book form, but this is good to grab sentences out of to paste in digitaliss when refering to it.
Ever read it? I had it back in the late 70s or early 80s...sometime way back, it backs up a lot of Antony Sutton's work-a full display of the right dialectic in action.
Mike.
ReplyDeletehopefully we can fight like the dickins and stay married.
I doubt anyone's going to jump ship over this..
All in a days headbanging. Thin skins just need some callouses.
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Oh wotta clever willie ya got there. Have ya got caught showin the hare to yer little sister? Now, keep strokin' it yerself... it'll get nice and TALL!
ReplyDeleteThen you can spurt your willy-nilly rubber vocabulary and watch it fly here and there... give sis a spoot for her curious poot... and git EVEN with MOM for holdin back that noo-noo... and git EVEN with dad for whappin yer ass for even THINKIN that shit about MOM.
The "Middle Class" that makes yer willie nice and tall was nailed as the BOURGEOISIE by the old theorists... the lackeys and flunkies that kept the pigs on top... because they were MORE than willing to have the PIGS a mile above them as long as it kept the "brown people" an inch below them. Except the "brown people" is only their baby-brother's rose-hole that you covet so much in their Portnoy-inspired "libertarian" "individual-rights" corn-hole bourgeois fantasy.
How d'ya like THAT for "impolite language," rectum-nozzle? Oh- I can do EVEN BETTER as long as you have abandoned your "intellectual position" because it is vapor-ware and and have to revert to baby-talk. FACT IS: your "middle class" (and 80% oof the stoopid-dooped Amerikkan fuks think they are "middle class") are nothing but tools for the FATs.
FUCK YOUR "middle class" and the Quisling Hydrogenated Korn-Hole THEY rode in on.
btw- "fair disclosure"- I would definitely qualify for your definition of the "middle class" because I have been "paid" most of my life to do nothing but read bullshit and write bullshit... I am totally incapable of doing anything "useful." like fixing a leaking toilet. I AM capable of understanding and synthesizing text for the rich fucks... who don't give a flying fuck about that because they don't HAVE TO. But for some reason, they think that's important-- so they hire text-niggers like me to do it FOR them.
I specs the difference between you and me, O-Willo-baby-brother-stuffer... is that at least I KNOW that I'm a useless "knowledge-worker" fuck and will freely admit to it... instead of parroting some kind of bullshit-claptrap "ideology" about "freedum" and "liburty" that makes me feel good about wankin me own pole and squitin all over me baby sister.
Is THAT plain enough for ya, Fudge-Packer?
Yea Waldorf,
ReplyDeleteLike I said, that's why I like you so much, always good for some fulsome wanky woo woo. Like I sayeth twice und third time the charmer: some sort of autistic d'cute.
Now remember, when your smilin' the whole world smiles with you.{wink}
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Who said "capitalism ain't so bad" here John?
ReplyDeleteWho said the founding fathers weren't hypocrits?
Like you, I showed up here way after..whatta we do? Off ourselves and give the country back to the Indians?
Goddamit man, I feel your passion. If you have read any of my other work, any of my commentary here other than this current fight, you would see how passionately I hate the bullshit wars, the police state, the plutocracy...
No, it was certainly no utopia in the new republic of 76. Like I have said over and over, utopian dreams manifest as dystopian nightmares.
But this is true of your utopian dreams as well.
Regardless of hammering this...the Reds WERE designed by the RR mystic machine. It's history man, you cannot dodge it.
The founders, hypocrits as they were left us with one thing--one thing to hold on to, "that all men are created equal".
But this means equal in our rights--not in our abilities. We have bantered this back and forth for so long, not just us here on this thread, but humankind for the last two and a half centuries.
When I began this thread, I was merely warning against the evil of falling for the trap of unfulfillable daydreams: Utopia.
Your projection that I have no compassion for the downtrodden is simply wrong. But falling into this Trotskian trap is no solution. As you admit--this is a socialist country as we write, and this is how it shakes out, candy talking leaders and deluded followers.
Someone once said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This seems to be the case.
Personally I long for peace on earth and good will amongs men. But I see no way out of the hell that has been constructed over our heads. We have been herded into a cul du sac...and men of good will are at each others throats in frustration.
I don't want to merely survive--I want to be free.
At this point we can only be free in our minds, to have our own points of view.
We have shared these views here with one another in a mighty joust that has led us where?
In utter discord. So I will leave you with this:
Vladimir: Well? Shall we go?
Estragon: Yes, let's go.
(Stage direction: They do not move.)
--Samuel Becket, WAITING FOR GODOT
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" that has led us where?
ReplyDeleteIn utter discord. "
There was no particular discord until you showed up again with your arrogant posturing of 'I'm right if I say so and you're all wrong'.
We have more or less agreed on what is wrong with the world, and that something has to be done about it other than wringing our hands and saying "too late", and other than crudely hectoring.
It's not too late to shovel out the crooks and cancel their war-and-extermination plans and their ability to do the same in the future.
I have suggested a possible practical way, which you have criticised and ridiculed, which is easy, but you have not provided any alternative, though required several times.
We are trying to provide something more practical that discordant arrogant noise.
So show us that you can be more than the haranguing braggart pulpiteer you show yourself to be. Give us a more practical step by step process by which we may usurp the dogs-in-office NOW. And don't just quote what so many others SAID. You tell us what YOU think should be DONE.
And I will remind you that 'Utopia' refers to 'the ideal state of society', but it nowhere says that it has to be set in concrete. It can be adjustable to adapt to the requirements of any changing circumsdtance at any time to reflect still the ideals of peace, justice and constructive progress.
"We" is you, Waldo and Camus in this particular instance--that is not the sum of COTO hotshot.
ReplyDeleteYou say you have a practical plan. I see goals and wishes from you, nothing more.You are ignorant of history, and militantly oblivious to facts.
If you got a plan you believe in then by all means get on it. I see no consensus even here at COTO sans Rogue to fly on your ship.
You guys all like the Beatles, and love love love...
Well here's another lyric from them:
"Think for yourself 'cause I won't be there with you"...
You can keep the bone up your ass about me as long as you like. And you can come out flailing at me all you want. But I'm personally sick of ya and have no more to say to you.
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Hey Will, don't take those "ism"-fighters to the heart! :)
ReplyDeleteWading through this stream of arguments vs. ideas, poetry, insulting personal attacks and hollow rhetoric, confirms the deeper meaning of the statement you and me recently "crossed swords" upon - namely my opinion that discussions about irrational stuff serve no good, rather lead to conflicts. This one is a perfect example... ;))
As long as you try to rationally argue against any belief system, and believers in a "true socialism" are among the fiercest, most persistent defenders of their religion, you've got a hard standing, not to say - you've lost before the battle has begun. You've lost in the sense of what you hoped to accomplish, even though you win with every word you say.
How do you wnat to cope with arguments in face of folks who are capable of phrasing:
"When there are NO corporations and NO insanely wealthy people on the planet, then we will have it."
In other words: when the moon will kiss the sun, then we'll have it... lol
In short - I'm definitely with you on the subject, as I perfectly get your point, just that I wouldn't even attempt to discuss it with folks who simply don't get it. :)
Stay cool! ;)
Thank God for that. For sheer presumtuous arrogance, you take the biscuit. I was beginning to think the only argument you would understand would be a piece of 4 x 2.
ReplyDeletegood morning Dave,
ReplyDeleteI understand my "no corps" line sounds like naive childish blather to most if not all here.
But regardless of its possibility, just for a thought experiment, hypothetically would it be a world you would like to see manifest?
I think we all agree we are in a war against some very powerful, entrenched evil forces.
My point in talking so "pie in the sky" is to expand the horizon of our ultimate goals, dreams if you will. By doing so we make clear to the enemy that we do not even accept their right to exist, that we plan to exterminate them just as they plan for us.
To verbalize dreams is the first step. Then we really visualize it happening. Then...........who knows? I'm not predicting it will happen tomorrow, but one should not under estimate the impact 9/11 truth will have when every person on earth knows. When the guilty are swinging in the breeze know this: Americans will be ready for some huge changes to biz as usual. That is the moment we must be ready with every pie-cake-candy-and-eclair-in-the-sky demand we can dream of.
Will we get Utopia right then? No, but with demands that seem outrageous now will be savy bargaining practices then. Selling a house dont you usually ask for above market at first?
Revoking a corporations charter is not rocket science. During WWII the top tax bracket was around 90%. Many countries have taken over entire industrys for the people's benefit.
Decide what kind of world you want your grandchildrens grandchildren to live in, then work for it.
Will, thank you for feeling my passion. As hard as it is to believe when we egg the "other side" on to ever more strident, foul mouthed attacks....we really have more in common than not.
More Beatles:
Sounds of laughter shades of earth
Are ringing through my open views
Inciting and inviting me
Limitless undying love
Which shines around me like a million suns
It calls me on and on across the universe
Working for baby steps like "better regulation" seems disproportionate when the other side is planning to exterminate most of us and enslave the rest.
ReplyDelete"When your bird is broken
Will it bring you down?
You may be awoken,
I'll be roun' "
oh, one last thing.....when i said "sure, we are a s. country...food stamps..." i was being facetiously sarcastic.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your prescient comments Dave.
ReplyDeleteThat was one of my points in the body of the essay, that "it" is based on emotion rather than reason. You are right, there is no convincing the true believer.
But perhaps someone sitting at the edge of the arena, not quite caught up in the the 'silly thing' got some food for thought. Sometimes our fights are more for display than for victory over a particular opponent.
So all the energy was not lost...for myself a small cost...and as you can tell I love the rapier.{grin}
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Boogie on fatuously sarcastico cha cha...you may keep this dance floor as your very own kingdom now.
ReplyDeleteI do agree re verbalizing dreams - as long as those dreams have at least a tiny little chance to make it into reality, it may serve as a part of the motivation and driving force to fight for something good. But, if a dream is completely "off the road", it may rather distract someone who otherwise would have been a valuable comrade on the road to change the world. I would not only like to see a world free of corps, I'd definitely like to see Paradise on this planet - just a pitty that there is NO chance whatsoever for such dreams to come through.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, in order to achieve at least some of our common objectives, I rather stick to "reality" - means, a concept being supported by rational arguments, as much as possible, taking in account all that we can learn from historic and present experience.
I actually think that 9/11 truth has the potential of a plentitude of nukes, to use this picture, in the fight against the powers we all wanna see eliminated, it has an absolute crucial, a key function to determine our chances. Should we succeed in really convincing a critical mass of folks about the pure fact that it was an inside job, this could very likely spark a positive (r)evolution, making the crooks run for their lives.
Thus, working efficiently to spread the 9/11 truth is one of the absolute priorities, if we want to have at least the glimpse of a chance against the evil empire. We will not be effective in this struggle as long as we engage in fights about ideological questions that may be important for some people's conceptual understanding of politics and society, but have absolutely no significance for accomplishing our most important task(s).
You're welcome, Will!
ReplyDeleteI don't think your energy invested on this subject was lost - just that it possibly wasn't invested for the best possible cause... ;) it's one of the questions I have been thinking about for decades, how important it is to spend our time (and all of our resources) in the BEST POSSIBLE way, in particular when it's all about achieving certain goals.
Anyway, it's an advantage to love the rapier, in regard to all that COTO stands for, no doubt about it! ;)
Yesssss, king of all I parlay
ReplyDeleteNooooo, not "just for display"
While it aint true I couldn't be happier
New lurkers, dont fear the rapier
The king was in the garden picking flowers
For a friend who came to play
The Queen was in the playroom
Painting pictures for the children's holiday
IN THE COURT OF THE CRIMSON KING
ReplyDeleteThe rusted chains of prison moons
Are shattered by the sun.
I walk a road, horizons change
The tournament's begun.
The purple piper plays his tune,
The choir softly sing;
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue,
For the court of the crimson king.
The keeper of the city keys
Put shutters on the dreams.
I wait outside the pilgrim's door
With insufficient schemes.
The black queen chants
the funeral march,
The cracked brass bells will ring;
To summon back the fire witch
To the court of the crimson king.
The gardener plants an evergreen
Whilst trampling on a flower.
I chase the wind of a prism ship
To taste the sweet and sour.
The pattern juggler lifts his hand;
The orchestra begin.
As slowly turns the grinding wheel
In the court of the crimson king.
On soft gray mornings widows cry
The wise men share a joke;
I run to grasp divining signs
To satisfy the hoax.
The yellow jester does not play
But gentle pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance
In the court of the crimson king.
Talk
ReplyDeleteIt's only talk
Babble
Burble
Banter
Bicker bicker bicker
Brouhaha
Boulderdash
Ballyhoo
It's only talk
Back talk
elephant talk until that day
we are all kings
(or Queens)
What was the PLAGUE?
ReplyDeleteRED STORM RISING
ReplyDeleteThe East is Red King is dead
A bloody son arises in a
Long March along derailed
Crunch boot head impaled
And rattling hail surprises
Power in a barrel in a land and groove
And a tryst of a witness matter ...
In a Cracker Barrel Hog room
Gobbling biscuits in a gravy of
Foxes' chatter.
Where are the Brave Boys?
Fat toys hear the noise...
Eight figure butts all scatter
To a cash-crop parking lot twilight
Too hot sweating in Suburban batter.
Where are our Brave Boys?
Over there four deploys
Horseman swinging sickles...
Conquest (or Pestilence) War and Death
Famine served grease and pickles.
Trembling in their pulled-pork diarrhea
Running down their faux-leather seats
Cream-Puff Fatties in starched white shirts
Blubber in their "isms" and tweets
And a Blood Son dies their starters and lies.
Would you like that, sir, with fries?
"Would you like that, sir, with fries?"
ReplyDeleteWith REAL tomato kachup...if you kan kachup.
ok, ok.....the plague was a novel. In the existential absurdist tradition. Meanings and symbols were ambiguous and multiple.
ReplyDeletePlease do share this tid-bit that you have been panting to toss out.
Many literary experts have proposed many meanings and metaphorical allegorys to the story but by all means......we are all on tenderhooks, donch'a know......waiting with baited breath as it were....please bestow upon us your other worldly interpretation as it is sure to be the most compelling ever to come tumbling out of left field.
"the plague was a novel. In the existential absurdist tradition.."--Camus?what?
ReplyDeleteExistential indeed...as far as absurdist... THAT is absurd. Sorry 1 demerit.
Yes the meaning was 'ambiguous', to the wet behind the ear and lost passengers in the machine.
Did you ever read the book for cryin' outloud?
If one of your Pupils approached you with such a wiseguy attitude would you give him a straight answer?
Look in the mirror the neurosis is staring you right in the eys.
Camus?,
ReplyDeleteLook into Foucault and panopticism. The history of the Panopticon is drawn from the effects of quarantine during the great plagues of Europe.
It is better you should use your noggin than for me to hand it to you on a plate.
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For camusrebel,
ReplyDeleteAs you likely never figured this out for yourself:
"The Plague" by Camus was metaphor for, 'Neurosis'. Each character in the book describes their particular neurotic characteristics in great detail.
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