***UPDATE*** ... and Oh yes, you will be forced to pay higher taxes to cover the cost of healthcare, even though the insurance companies will surely profit even more than they have over the past decade or so, setting record profit margins. So you will HAVE to buy insurance, no matter WHAT (or face the consequences)... and you will pay higher taxes as well.
All it takes is for you to be "educated".
"The administration has an extremely difficult educational problem on its hands," said Henry J. Aaron, a health care expert at the Brookings Institution. "They understand that at some point tax increase are going to be necessary across the board.
"Yes, for the middle class, too," he added. MSNBC
---------------------------
(It should also be noted that this article I am quoting, the one explaining how this mandatory healthcare purchasing plan is actually a good thing, is presented to you by MSNBC – owned by General Electric – who also owns GE HEALTHCARE.)
This is the worst thing this Clintonista White House could possibly have done to healthcare. It will make Clinton’s welfare reform look like a Utopia by comparison.
Pretty soon we will be lucky to take home a 5th of our paychecks.
And you middle class phony liberals out there, you "Obamaites" as it were, you just wait till you are forced to start paying taxes on the insurance you get from work; you've been turning a blind eye to the suffering of all the other “democrats” out there (at least the ones you perceive to be lower on the food chain than yourselves), you wait and see what happens when that IRS bite comes for you.
“The Senate health committee’s draft bill would require all legal residents of the United States to have insurance and would penalize people who did not obtain insurance, except those with incomes below about $16,250. The House Democrats’ bill has a similar provision.” MSNBC
[This is what is called a "rant" in the world of blogs. It will delve into strong language at times. Be advised. Click accordingly.]
You take a young guy coming out of college, you cripple the economy so he has to work for LESS than his father did while paying 4 times what his father paid for his education (thanks to privatized/corrupt student loan programs), and while he is paying taxes upon taxes to cover the Stimulus Package (that’s done nothing) and the TARP Bill (that’s done nothing except make certain banking and financial sector CEO fabulously wealthy (like the one from GE CAPITAL)) and the library down the street is closing and the parks are being sold, on top of all that, you are going to FORCE this guy to pay 10-15% of his BULLSHIT income of 20k a year, to an insurance company… so they can more MORE RECORD PROFITS NEXT YEAR? Force a man who doesn’t need healthcare to buy it with a huge chunk of his income?
That’s fucking disgusting.
The article goes on to pretend like forcing young, healthy people who don’t want or can’t afford insurance, to buy insurance, is “cross subsidizing” people WITH insurance… as if the young healthy ones are helping to pay for the ones who need care now….
THAT’S BULLSHIT! And that is going to be their SALESPITCH for the next few weeks!
It’s bullshit because the insurance industry is already HIGHLY PROFITABLE! Right now, with the insured people paying big bucks, and some using the medical care as needed, the insurance industry ALREADY MAKES HUGE PROFITS…
… so forcing the young and healthy to buy insurance they DON’T WANT or CAN’T AFFORD… is only going to…
INCREASE THE FUCKING PROFITS OF THE INSURANCE COMPANIES!
I’m sorry, but it doesn’t take a fucking genius to figure that out.
Now, if you think that is bad enough, wait… it gets better.
Your “President of Change” may actually be looking to push though the House and Senate, a provision in the bill that makes it CRIMINAL not to BUY HEALTH INSURANCE from the private sector.
That’s right; not just a fine, because then people could do the math and figure out which is cheaper, and besides, the private companies don’t get the cash if its a fine paid to the Federal Government… so, what are they considering?
As Fronstin and Murray Ross of the Kaiser Permanente Institute for Health Policy said in a recent analysis: “While there is considerable reluctance to criminalize being uninsured, having only token financial penalties would miss the point.”
Fronstin said, “The crucial difficulty is finding that financial penalty sweet spot. If it’s too low, then you’re going to have a lot of people who just pay the penalty.” MSNBC
The “criminalization of the uninsured“. That’s how you solve the problem of 50 million uninsured people in America… you make them criminals for being uninsured, then you send them off to jail, like in the debtors prison days.
Unfucking believable.
So you better keep taking real good care of yourselves, people.
Quit smoking; quit eating fatty foods. Go work out 3 times a week and start riding your bike to work everyday. Take the stairs instead of the elevator and don’t drink too much.
Take good, good, care of yourselves boys and girls, cus everything you do to make yourselves healthier, just puts more and more money in the insurance industry’s pocket now that purchasing insurance is mandatory. And that’s a fact.
Now that debate over reform has intensified, the health care industry is spending $1.4 million per day on lobbyists to ensure industry gets reform that benefits them, not you.
ReplyDeleteTime to fill the FEMA Camps. This is a windfall for the insurance companies.
ReplyDeleteThere insurance is high granted but the competition by the government will be cheaper and completely useless in quality.
Just another program that could be funded by a fair tax code, ending the military surges all over the world and electing Ralph Nader.
Times up for the democrats and GOP is already a dead party. Who votes for Obama in 2012?Illegals, elitists, bankers and lobbies and the thirty million losers that watched the Jackson jubilee and the innauguration.
I am very sorry about your mother's passing, and how the Oregon Health Plan just added to the pain. I'm on the Hillsborough Health Plan myself, and I can tell you, even though the staff seem to be at least "trying" to be helpful, the fact is, they are being forced right now to cover more and more people with less and less.
ReplyDeleteI have DVTs and have already had one Pulmonary Embolism. It's like pulling teeth trying to get a simple PT/INR test. They should take one a week and adjust my blood thinner accordingly, yet, they'll schedule me for one, every two months or so, and then the doctor won't see the results till my next appointment with him a month later. Which does no good what-so-ever.
And the same is true down here. Were I to die, or hit the lottery or something, they will THEN assign a value to the services I received... and extract their pound of flesh. So whatever they think they can get from me without being sued in return, that is what my healthcare costs right now.
Funny, cus right now it feels like it isn't worth a damn thing.
It's funny how they always seem to find more money for prisons, illegal occupations, and aid to apartheid states, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteDidn't some guy in Texas find a link between Cheney and the privatized prison complex? Whatever happened to that guy? Guess he ended up shooting himself twice in the head as well.
You know what gets me? This is the EXACT same plan that Shillary was spinning up in her run-up to the election. The very same one, with a few little details now ironed out. That means it's the SAME healthcare plan that Obama ran against and the SAME healthcare plan the Obamaites denounced during the campaign; for many of the reasons that we are talking about here.
ReplyDeleteNOW ALL OF A SUDDEN... they are going to line up to support it.
It makes me wonder just how far these morons will go. I mean, just how much are they willing to let Obama get away with before they are able to admit to themselves that they were had?
Will they support another BS imperialist invasion of yet another nation, like Iran? Pakistan? Venezuela?
Will they turn a blind eye when the next false flag op takes place, and the Obama civil defense red-jacketed goons start raiding "extremists" homes looking for "subversive" material?
For 8 years many of these people were right there at the protests and rallies. For 8 years they wrote, petitioned, and worked against illegal occupations, torture, deceit.
Now, they not only remain silent, but they actually work HARD to justify the criminal actions of Team DLC Obama Brand. Rational, intelligent people, trading in their values and their entire belief system, ... for what? A salesman? A pitchman? A hero? A new father figure?
It just goes to show me how very fragile most people's code of ethics really are.
I have been avoiding the whole Jackson thing. Like the "Black Death" (no pun intended). But I talked to someone, like, the day after he died... and I will tell you, that individual is STILL seething about it. I have never seen anything like it.
ReplyDeleteHe brings up Jackson almost every day, and each time it is with the zeal of a zealot. Talks about how Jackson sold so many records.. that of course makes him "the best"... talks about how he sold out shows and made SOO MUCH MONEY...
Then he always does the same thing... starts rambling, almost incoherently, about Jackson's disgusting personal life, listing all his problems (wanting to be "white" (this friend is black, by the way), the plastic surgery, and of course, pedophilia), ranting on about all of them for a while, then - everytime - he ends with "Say what you will... that shit DON'T MATTER! He was the BEST EVER."
I mean, what kind of fucked up self-esteem issues does this guy deal with?
His "best ever" was a self-loathing, drug addicted, child molester... and yet, if people around him cast any aspersions on the man, he just goes off like a Jim Jones follower....
oh yeah, he has a "signature series" Obama cap.
It wouldn't take much at all to convince people like him that they had to "turn in" anyone who talks about "extremist" view-points. I can assure you of that.
You know, I read that, and I just couldn't believe it. Why the hell do they have to spend ANYTHING on lobbyists? The lobbyists are in the White House writing the plans with Rahm and Shillary. No one in congress is going to oppose the great Obama-God and his Zionist enforcer, Rahm. I just don't get it.
ReplyDeleteI guess they have to grease the wheels no matter what with a payday this big looming as a reward.
I suppose it's partially because it's "free money" - part of all that AIG bailout cash or the TARP funds that GE pocketed because they bought two little banks in Utah.
I don't know. But you are damn right; that is who our representatives serve... not us. Not by a long-shot.
50 million uninsured people in America?
ReplyDeleteWhat it costs a month on these illegal and senseless wars in the Middle East would probably be enough to insure most, if not all of these uninsured Americans.
The subjugation of America.
As you might imagine there is a tremendous amount of disinformation going around about single-payer health care. The Insurance and Pharma industries don't want to lose their golden goose!
ReplyDeleteCheck out the details of HR 676. And BTW the details of both Hillary's and Edward's plans were both better than Obama's- not that I'd expect any politician to actually come through without a big public push.
It's always a good idea to check out the details before grabbing one of the hot buttons offered by the PR sleeze. They get paid very well for confusing issues until everyone is sick of them. Meanwhile 50 people die each and every day because they don't have health coverage.
We have no hope of things changing without revolution. The government is Mussolini style fascist. The white house and congress are "THE Corporation." To expect any health care plan that would benefit people over corporate interests is naive. Otherwise, single payer would be the only option "our representatives" (Ha!) would consider.
ReplyDeletePresident Ralph Nader.....if only it weren't just a pleasant dream.....~sigh~
Yea, Scott the MJ adoration thing is another part of the conditioning of the masses isn't it? There are even coto members who wrote glowingly of him albeit admitting how twisted he was. Yea, the guy was one helluva singer and dancer.. So what??
ReplyDeleteWhy are black people so enthralled? He wanted to be white! He was one of the most disturbed individuals in the country. I don't get Al Sharpton getting up there making this a racial issue. It's quite disgusting. If they want to hold up MJ as their standard of black accomplishment than I'd say they need to rethink their value system. This perverted, sad, sick individual is held in higher esteem than MLK for god sake. Which illustrates how sick this society really is.
Which brings us back to health care! Single Payer is the ONLY plan that works for we the people. Spend our tax dollars on something for US FOR A CHANGE. Ha, as if THAT would ever happen.
Barb, I'm sorry about your mom and the way she was treated. Her story is repeated over and over throughout this country. People work their entire lives being good citizens and paying their taxes and this is the thanks they get.
ReplyDeleteI have insurance through work that I partially pay for. Most people are insured this way. In fact, many women are working just to be able to afford insurance. How sick is that? I wonder what would happen if everyone refused to pay another penny towards it? I like that thought very much, actually..........
Well, I don't know about the EXACT details of the Hillary plan prior to June of 2008, but I do know that her plan was the only one that had punitive consequences for not buying a health-plan from the private insurance companies and that issue alone was a major cause of dissension among her followers.
ReplyDeleteI could be wrong, but I don't remember Obama's plan calling for making not having health insurance against the law back then. If you want to show me where his plan did have that included before that date, I would be interested in seeing it.
I think Edwards plan was better than both, but still it involved major bucks for the private insurance companies.
Again, I am not an expert on the history of the development of either Hillary's or Obama's healthcare plans. I know that BOTH of them kept the details of their plans kinda hidden during that time. Myself, I was always a fan of the Kucinich/Conyers single payer plan... so I could be mistaken. But I know Hillary was talking in several interviews about punitive measures for not buying in... I'm not so sure about Obama at that time.
The fact is, WE could FORCE them to draft legislation for single payer... if we wanted to.
ReplyDeleteLike you suggest, if half of the people in this country said "No" and burned their insurance cards and canceled their policies over the next month, then took the time to "drop in" at their local hospitals for what amounts to a "check-up"...
Insurance companies would fold, and the legislation would HAVE to put together something like single payer to cover the huge swell of uninsured people out there. They would have to or the hospitals and doctors would simply go bankrupt.
But it would be almost impossible to do right now, because of Obama.
If Bush had tried this crap, the liberals would be all over it. And yes, they would have THEN been open to an idea like this one. But now? Hell no... they would NEVER sacrifice their own peace of mind insurance benefits on a plan that would undermine their precious leaders' credibility. They would rather sell their children's future out than do that.
"Will they turn a blind eye when the next false flag op takes place, and the Obama civil defense red-jacketed goons start raiding “extremists” homes looking for “subversive” material?"
ReplyDeleteScott, I did a piece on those "red jacketed" goons as my very first submission here on coto. I think only Mark Watterson & Oz read it! lol
City Year scares the hell outta me. It is, without a doubt, the american version of Hitler youth or the german stasi. The tattletale squad that will spy on their neighbors, friends and family. SICK ! I really hate those ads of those obamazombies extolling the virtues of their little "group." If you want to check out this little film from youtube someone sliced together with the movie the "wave" and city year check it out here. It's pretty damn good !
http://cotocrew.wordpress.com/2009/05/31/obama-youth-city-year/
And THAT Scott is why Obama is so much scarier than Bush. Why McCain would have been sooooo much better as president. Yet at oen, all we heard was WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE MCCAIN? And coto said, YES, YES WE WOULD! But of course, the obamazombies never got it and coto got banned en masse..
ReplyDeleteIf only we could swim the Rio Grande and get section 8,food stamps,Medicade and CHIPS from Mexico wouldnt that be grand ! 50 million uninsured minus 20 million illegals leaves 30 million,about the amount of unemployed.
ReplyDeleteIllegals and immigrants run the political process in south Texas,they have fine free clinics and dental clinics, I must pay for My dental care and Medicare. The Democratic party can only be outdone for sheer treason by the Rethuglicans.
Re: the update- The current tax proposal is only for those whose taxable income is more than $200,000 or $250,000 for married couples.
ReplyDelete"you will be forced to pay higher taxes" ?? Don't know about you Scott, but this sure doesn't apply to us.
I think I read that. I put the exact same video up on my site around the same time.
ReplyDeleteYou know all that crap Olbermann was saying about that one poster at the Tea Party... the one that had a pic of Obama as Hitler? Well, he got off on the poster making the connection between ACORN and the SS.
Aside from Olbermann making much adu about nothing... the creator of the poster clearly had it wrong... it's not ACORN that is serving as his SS... it's his City Year project....
You got that right. I was saying the exact same thing. Obama was the best thing the imperialist could have wanted. Had McCain been "awarded" the vote, this country would have torn itself apart and we would have thrown those bastards the hell out. Instead, we got a Manchurian Candidate. And will take the Obamaites at least two years to figure it out (or at least admit it to themselves), but by then, just like in early 2008, they will be able to pass off their inaction as "waiting for the 2010 elections"...
ReplyDeleteWhen I first figured out what they were doing, I wrote on a Obama site (one that I helped them create in 2007 and am now banned from for not supporting Obama in Nov. 2008) that what these bastards have done is brilliant, when you think about it.
They knew we would riot if they stole another election, so they just had to find a corrupt "New Dem" that wasn't too closely related to the DLC and the Clintons... and pass him off as "CHANGE"...
It bought them at least two years... maybe even more. Brilliant, when you think about it.
What? You didn't read the quote? Didn't read the article I linked to? MSNBC (you know, the Olbermann/Maddow channel?) THEY are saying that the "middle class" will have to be taxed as well in order to make up the deficit for the expected cost overruns of this proposed program...
ReplyDeleteSo... yes... if you are middle class or working class (or even poor... they are already spending 70 cents more per pack of cigs for the SCHIP program... or didn't you read the article?) you WILL (according to this article in the "all Obama all the Time" channel) pay a tax increase for Obamacare.
Who are "THEY"? I stick to the legislation or to groups like Public Citizen that I have confidence in.
ReplyDeleteOf course there are alot of fear tactics and disinfo being thrown around....They want us to shoot down everything so we get nothing.
Well... "they" would be MSNBC, laudyms... and the people "they" quote in the article would be Henry J. Aaron from the Brookings Institute.
ReplyDelete"A noted health care expert, Henry Aaron focuses on the reform of health care financing; public systems such as Medicare and Medicaid; Social Security; and tax and budget policy."
http://www.brookings.edu/experts/aaronh.aspx
You know... I don't know your personal situation and I am not going to venture a guess.
But I would like you to know, as best and as respectfully as I can tell you, that when you say things like "They want us to shoot down everything so we get nothing..." I don't think your idea of "us" and "we" is the same as mine, quite frankly.
when you say "so WE get nothing"... I'm just a little apprehensive about the "we" and what it is YOU plan to get.
Here's what I plan to "get" out of this deal...
I will be forced to BUY an insurance plan, with pre-existing COPD, two DVTs in my left leg, at least one Pulminary Embolism, a lifetime need for blood thinner, and something so horrible that the last three times I was wisked away to the hospital (in an ambulance and unwilling) after the attending ran some tests, they like to rush me out of the hospital before he (or she) even comes back and goes over the test results with me.
Why would they do that? I don't know. Healthcare is a business and by law if they discover something about a patient on Hillsborough Healthcare, then they are required to do what they can...
... however, if they simply don't make the diagnosis they get to cut me loose after treating me for DVTs or a minor "Shower Embolism" or what have you.
Now, that said. I ran my own design company doing architectural designs and drafting for about 6 years, and we all know what happened to that market, now don't "WE"?
So I have no insurance. I am trying to get by building cabinets for a little while now, but that job pays next to nothing and certainly no healthcare coverage.
and I had to quit taking the blood thinner that was making me feel better because I am working with industrial saws, planers, joiners, sanders... ect. ect. ect. So, in short, I am getting sicker, just to keep from being homeless.
Is THAT the "WE" you are talking about?
Because I will tell you, under this plan, written by Clinton's people and Rahm and of course, the representatives of the insurance industry, under this plan, I will be charged a fortune for ANY kind of healthcare plan, and I will be FORCED to buy it, under penalty of law.
I mean, I can't even CHOSE to simply work as long as I can, get sicker, and eventually DIE.... under this plan.... nope. I will HAVE to pay HUGE amounts of my measily fucking check to the insurance companies, who will, in the end, find some way to FUCK ME OVER ANYWAY.
Now, that you have a LITTLE BETTER UNDERSTANDING of who "WE" are...
... why don't you take the time to explain to me, in the face of this article from a company that stands to make a LOT of money on the Obamacare plan, and in the face of what I just told you...
... PLEASE explain to me exactly what "WE" are going to "GET" from Obamacare....
.... I am LITERALLY dying to know.
See http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18600
ReplyDelete""House Democrats at work on health legislation are narrowing in on an income tax surcharge on the highest-paid wage earners to help pay the cost of subsidizing insurance for the 50 million who lack it.
Pushing to complete a comprehensive health care bill by Friday and bring it up for committee votes next week, House Democrats abandoned earlier money-raising proposals, including a payroll tax. They planned to meet behind closed doors Thursday to fine-tune the details........."
but why didn't you continue with the article?
ReplyDelete"Ways and Means Chairman Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., has said his committee needs to come up with $600 billion in new taxes to deliver on President Barack Obama's goal of sweeping changes to the nation's health care system to bring down costs and cover the 50 million uninsured. Hundreds of billions of dollars more would come from cuts to Medicare and Medicaid to pay for legislation expected to cost around $1 trillion over 10 years."
$600 billion in "new taxes" and "cuts to Medicare and Medicaid"? hmm. You think all of THAT is coming from the people who make more than 250k per year? That's quite a lot, don't you think?
Oh, and as for you and your co-workers getting taxed on your existing healthcare benefits package, you had better hope that Sen. Baucas doesn't get HIS plan though...
(this if from YOUR article, BTW)...
"A group of Democratic and Republican senators led by Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., is still working toward a bipartisan deal, but that effort appeared set back by concerns Reid and other leading Democrats expressed this week over a tax on health care benefits that Baucus was considering to pay for it."
aside from the fact that your own source seems to hint at the things I am talking about, lets take a second to check that source.
He wrote this in 2006, apparently after getting caught in some kind of journalistic scam...
"Despite those who believe otherwise, and they have every reason to do so, I have never made up a quote. I have, however, accepted information from others without checking it out and have too quickly accepted that information if it fit into my grand scheme of things. I ignored warning signs that should have kept me from using material I knew was marginal. I was wrong"
and in the FAQ sections, he describes his meetings in this way...
"We're members of the Great Buffalo Wing Conspiracy. We meet on a haphazard basis at the local Hooters and, over a plate of wings, ponder important social questions like "do you think those are real?" or "is she wearing underwear?"
I don't know about you, but this link doesn't make me feel better about supporting Obamacare...
Hmmmmmm.. here come those cuts in Medicare & Medicaid. OH and social security, well that's not safe either. He pretty much promised these cuts early on. All the while planning to give his wall street buddies their trillions of our $$$.
ReplyDeleteSo, in summation... our taxes will drastically rise AGAIN. We will be FORCED to buy health insurance against our will and which we can't afford AND our benefits will continued to be reduced to pure sh**, mark my words.
There is NOTHING in his plan that doesn't spell anything but huge profits for the insurance industry and the good ole screwing of we the people. Of course, we will have to pay royally for the screwing just as we did for the bankster heist and how we will have to pay royally in carbon taxes while the corporate lords and the Al Gore's and Barack Obama's of the world reap all the rewards.
Dammit, I'm pissed !!
Yes the House and Senate versions differ quite a bit. That doesn't mean they are both bad-- does it?
ReplyDeleteNo one has any extra money to pay for health care. We are already paying more and getting less than anyone in the industrialized world. Single payer gets Insurance out of the mix, and it's what we need. There are a variety of proposals out there. Why not support what you want instead of blowing all this smoke?
Can we stick to the Single-payer program we want?
ReplyDeleteCheck out:
June 24, 2009:
Sidney Wolfe, M.D., Acting President of Public Citizen and Director of Public Citizen's Health Research Group, and Steffie Woolhandler, M.D, M.P.H, Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and co-founder of Physicians for a Physicians for a National Health Program, testify before the Health Subcomittee of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce. The doctors built the case for single-payer by discussing wasteful spending resulting from private health insurance, the inadequacies of our current piecemeal health care system and the failure of the Massachusetts health care initiative.
Read Dr. Wolfe's testimony. http://www.citizen.org/publications/release.cfm?ID=7675
Read Dr. Woolhandler's testimony. http://www.citizen.org/publications/release.cfm?ID=7676
There is not a snowball's chance in hell that we will get single payer unless we stage an all out revolt for it.
ReplyDelete"Blowing smoke"?
ReplyDeleteI wrote a thoughtful and honest response to one of your comments, giving you specific details of my personal situation and what these proposals will actually mean for me and millions like me, many of whom are in much worse shape than myself.
What did you do? You ignored that comment completely and you posted something from a guy, who is basically saying (at least mentioning) many of the same things that I have been since this thread started.
I have proven that "yes" there is a serious consideration going on in congress to set criminal penalties for not buying private healthcare coverage.
I have proven that "yes" there is at least, serious talk about taxing employer based healthcare benefits like income taxes to help pay for this Obamacare package (something also mentioned in the very article you linked us too)...
All of this to you is "blowing smoke"?
And again, you have STILL not answered my question... what exactly is it that you say "we" stand to "get" from this bill that is before the House and Senate? What exactly are people like me going to get? How about the guy making 16,200 per year? What is he going to "get" when he is forced to pay for insurance he can't afford with his 233 dollars a week after taxes? Hmm?
"Blowing smoke"? No. I am quite lucid actually. The only one here "blowing smoke" so far is you.
You keep trying to say that we have to support this or we lose "our" chance to get "something", but as of yet, you can't even say what that "something" is...
You can get single payer healthcare. The problem is the "progressives".
ReplyDeleteThey are so terrified of losing their little piece of power right now, even though they can clearly see it is being used in ways that they wouldn't want it used...
... but they are so scared of Obama losing his precious approval rating, they will literally bend over and take anything up the ass, just to keep an harmonious appearance in the face of the conservatives.
Well, that's not the ONLY problem the progressives present.
Let's FACE it... many "progressives" are actually of the upper-middle class, working well-off variety. Many of them have employer based healthcare and they are happy with it (till they get really sick, and then they start to ACTUALLY understand what SICKO was all about).
Many of those "progressives" actually believe the hype; they think that a leading cause of the high cost of healthcare are the 45 million or so who don't HAVE healthcare... even though the GAO says that the costs of taking care of those people run about 30-40 billion or so in an industry of about, what? a trillion dollars a year, ish? Do the math...
But, back to the story...
Those working-wealthy "progressives", with their insurance and their short waiting lines at their favorite doctors office actually think that if this bill passes, they won't be affected at all, except maybe they might actually SAVE money (because we all know the only reason healthcare costs sooo much money in America is those pesky "uninsured people").
And that is part (large part) of the problem.
When it comes down to really organizing a movement, 60% of our "progressive" brotheren want nothing more than to pass this damn legislation, because as crass as it may seem, they TOO are thinking with their wallets.
We are talking about a truly "liberal" or a "populist" issue being bandied around by a bunch of phony liberal centrist "progressives" who are just plain selfish.
And THAT is why we won't get single payer under this administration, and Team DLC Obama Brand damn well knows it.
Scott, I'll start buying the torches if you'll gather the pitchforks ;)
ReplyDeleteThe problem is incoherence. If someone had put together a coherent single payer plan, given it a recognizable name and allowed the public a chance to get behind it- with 83% of them wanting it, it would most likely go through.
ReplyDeleteBut with all the maybe this, maybe that, scare the poor into thinking things will just get worse yada yada- we are just ensuring that nothing positive will be done.
And if you can name a "progressive " in power right now, I'll show you a blatant hypocrite. PS these labels are also a bore.
Here is Obama in 03 pretending to be for single payer.. ha!!!!
ReplyDeleteHealth Care, is that what they're calling Eugenics these days ...
ReplyDeleteIf we know they poison our water, food and air, why wouldn't they also poison our so-called "health-care?"
They don't call us COTO for nothing.
I'm ready... lets go. hey wait a minute. Why do I get the pointy things? I still got some blood thinner running around my system?
ReplyDeleteYou've brought up the crux of the issue: it's not one problem, it's TWO-
ReplyDeletethe cost of health care and
the QUALITY (or not) of healthcare
But that deserves a thread of its own!
There is a good plan - the Kucinich Conyers plan is as good a plan as we have. Are you saying it's dead in the water because they didn't think of a "catchy" name for it? That's ridiculous. It didn't go through because the MSM wouldn't even let the candidates MENTION it in the debates and because the congress is bought and paid for by the insurance industry and big pharma and because the Clintons run the White House from behind the scenes these days just like Cheney used to run his White House.
ReplyDelete"Scare the poor"? WTF... I'm not scared, I'm pissed off. And I will tell you another thing, I have a MUCH clearer understanding of what is going on than apparently YOU DO... and since you mention "the poor" as an abstract group, my guess is your not. So good for you. I hope you do actually "get" something out of all this. I wouldn't wish my situation on anybody, but neither would I seek to improve mine by hindering anothers.
And that, dear lady, is what keeps there from being a "WE" between you and I.
"Damn the poor! Full speed ahead!" or as it was said so elegantly before... "Let them Eat Cake!".
You would be amazed if you really understood exactly what "the poor" has the fortitude to put up with... and ultimately how much courage they have to do something about it.
"The poor's" unrelenting gift to humanity has always been the continual striving for a true social democracy and the hard work to see it through to the bitter end.
You mark my words; we aren't through yet.
I'm saying people need to be able to identify a good plan by name so they can talk about it and distinguish it from the others.
ReplyDeleteYes, I'm educated and no that doesn't mean I'm rich. And I've been poor long enough to know also that it doesn't automatically bestow virtue. Can't figure out why you want to fight with me since we basically agree single payer is the way to go.
You seemed to suggest that this is all stemming from "the poor" being manipulated and frightened into some knee-jerk reaction that was going to cost "us" our "chance" at some kind of reform.
ReplyDeleteSingle payer is the way to go, but since we all know that isn't going to happen, I guess you are suggesting we get something, right? Well, this "something" they are about to ram down the throats of poor and working class people who can't afford insurance or don't NEED it is even WORSE than what we have right now. That is a fact. It may not be for some middle class "progressives", but it DAMN sure is for many many people out there.
You started off your set of comments saying I was wrong about the fact that legislators are planning to create a tax on health benefits or a cross the board tax to cover additional costs of this plan. I showed you that my article was supported by at least one other source, and there really are many to chose from.
You then suggested I was just being manipulated into rejecting this plan so that nothing would be done. Later you suggested that "the poor" are just being frightened into rejecting it as well. Am I not supposed to make the connection?
Would you guess that I am an "educated" person like yourself? Would you, after reading these comments, come to that conclusion?
No. Being poor doesn't bestow virtue on people, but neither does being rich, or being educated for that matter. Nor does being a middle class self-absorbed progressive democrat. This bill will not help people. It will hurt people by the millions. It will cause financial hardships and suffering that will slip quietly into the ether, like it was never there, while people wile away their time thinking about the next election cycle and how they can use the issue of the passage of "universal" healthcare as a marketing ploy.
Yes, if allowed to pass with these provisions that I have pointed out, this bill will be worse than what people have right now... and that isn't even getting into the cuts to Medicare and Medicaid. Massive cuts. A lot of people will be hurt by this because it is being written and pushed for by insurance companies. So no, I cannot support it at all; in any way shape or form. Forcing people to buy healthcare that they don't need with their few precious dollars just to make some contributors to Team Obama and the rest of congress very very rich is a sickening travesty to our nation. It is a joke. It is pathetic that we are even debating anything at all about this corporate plan of theirs as if it had any merit what-so-ever.
We may agree that single payer is the way to go, but we seem to disagree when it comes to settling for something being better than nothing. In my opinion, any support at all for this monstrous plan being worked in congress now, is a violation of basic human decency.
In my recent article for COTO "War on Cancer" I left out my own experience with the health care system in Hawaii. While the state does have a “plan” to help financially handicapped indigents like myself, getting medical insurance coverage is all but impossible, esp if one is self employed. At the time when I knew something was wrong with me I applied for medicaid, and even though I was technically qualified they kept denying me coverage for over six months. I had to apply, then reapply a total of four times. Each time they raised the bar for qualification with unbelievable rationale. It was a total guessing game - they were never upfront about what the real qualifications were. Meanwhile my cancer spread and went from stage one to stage four by the time I went under the knife. I was livid with rage - yelling at my health care coordinator that the state was trying everything they could do to kill me so they wouldn’t have to pitch in and help. I could write a book on this experience alone. What really pissed me off was that I had designed and built several commercial projects where the state made huge tax revenues from the restaurants I had buffed out. I felt I was only calling in my cards to get some payback for all the back breaking work I had done that made a ton of money for this corrupt state. But from what I gather from other comments here, Hawaii is no different than any other state. Health care in the US is an oxymoron.
ReplyDeleteWilly:
ReplyDelete"WORSE than what we have right now." Possible
"This bill will not help people." Which bill are you talking about? There are many proposals some good, some not.
"if allowed to pass with these provisions that I have pointed out" This is what that $1.4 million per day to lobbyists wants us to fear, and not consider real reform.
"this monstrous plan being worked in congress now" There is no one plan being worked on yet.
"additional costs of this plan" We are already paying more than what we get is worth. Real reform would save money, not cost more.
well Laudy, I suppose I am talking about the same BS plan that Representative Waxman was talking about YESTERDAY...
ReplyDelete"While the Senate debates what kind of health care reform bill to write, lawmakers on the other side of the Capitol have put their foot down, saying the House of Representatives will not pass a bill without a strong government-run health insurance option.
"I cannot see a bill passing without a public plan," said Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif...."
.. and Lynn Woolsey...
"You can't compromise on health care," said Rep. Lynn Woolsey, D-Calif., co-chairwoman of the chamber's most liberal faction, the 80-plus-member Progressive Caucus. "There is a point where compromise gets you nowhere."
So yes, there are a few "plans" running around in the House and Senate.
THE plan that I am talking about would probably be the Senate version, complete with legal penalties (perhaps criminal penalties) for not buying insurance, NO actual "public option" that competes with the private plans, and costs that are expected to run somewhere over a trillion dollars that need to be paid for with some new form of tax...
If you wish to know the additional cost estimates of the costs of the proposed plans as they stand today, you are in luck. The Congressional Budget Office is releasing it's findings today supposedly on what the plan will cost...
"The health care debate is bound to get more complicated Friday, when the Congressional Budget Office is scheduled to release its cost estimate of the House bill. The CBO has estimated costs of the Senate proposals to exceed $2 trillion."
Two trillion... does that sound like it qualifies under what you are talking about as "real reform"?
But we will see.
So yes, there are different "plans" but for the most part, Waxman, Woolsey, and many others aside from myself, see a clear enough picture developing to already be angry about what is going on, at least in the Senate version as it is being crafted now.
[edit: - the link to the quotes I put up - ]
I agree most of the stuff coming out of the Senate would just make things worse and cost more.
ReplyDeleteAnd I do wish a stronger voice would come out of the House to make it easier for people to get behind a good bill instead of having to come up with a laundry list of components.
The insistence of some (who escapes me for the moment) that quality of care would also be considered, is also important IMHO.
I have a local friend WITH insurance who just had surgery for lung cancer- but they neglected to do a chest X-ray for at least nine months while she complained of a chronic cough....the delay may easily be enough to kill her. Our American attachment to money as the only value has lowered standards in almost every industry. Our health care system is one of the most frustrating and frequently incompetent. Scary business.