Sunday, July 19, 2009

Cinderfella banned?

Something’s missing


July 19, 2009 by litnup

Where’s Cinderfella, and what happened to the “
“copyright laws threaten our online freedom” article?
It seems to me our “online freedom” is more threatened by one person’s opinion about what they think is acceptable than any copyright laws.
So you BANNED him? And no one seems to have even noticed? Gone. Not a word of explanation.
Pretty damned cold if you ask me. But of course you aren’t interested in my opinion. The one thing that is missing from most of the comments here
is the statement “I could be wrong”. So someone
heatedly expresses themself with strong language.
And you don’t agree with him so you ban him?
By what criteria do you make this decision?
How about outlining the boundaries you have arbitrarily set up so the rest of us can know
when we might be stepping over the line? Or is it something more personal? I mean, I get enough daily outrage just scaning the topic headings.
Now this. You have made a big blunder. You
sought to silence a truly talented and intelligent
voice who’s ORIGINAL ideas have been a source
of reflection, amusement and enlightenment.
What the fuck is your problem? I am so out of here…..

129 comments:

  1. Cinderdude will soon reply and clarify. Otherwise, oh boy.

    ReplyDelete
  2. http://cotocrew.wordpress.com/2009/07/11/copyright-laws-threaten-our-online-freedom/

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  3. Sorry, PD, could you please elaborate a bit on that ? One URL alone may not suffice.

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  4. I certainly hope litnup remains... because frankly, I agree with him.

    Look, I've banned one person that wasn't a spam-troll from my site in the history of the 26 or so months I have been running it.

    He stayed banned for all of one day.

    Now he is one of my favorite regulars.

    We can't set this precedent people. We can't. If someone cusses us out, if someone says something a bit "over the line"... we can't get in the habit of simply posting their IP in that little 'f-in" box that bans them.

    Shit, I have death threats still published on my site. Got one yesterday. Still up there.

    Cinderman may be a lot of things, but he damn sure isn't TRYING to hurt this site or the people that serve it. A disagreement is just that. Gotta let the little shit slide people.

    It's just my opinion, and take it for what it is worth, but if we are honestly a collective of contributors, I can only hope that my opinion means something to the people that run this site.

    Reinstate the man.

    I did it once. it turned out to be worth it.

    I hope you will consider what I am suggesting.

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  5. thanks, I agree and I lend support. Tolerance, Yeah.

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  6. what's missing, litnup, is the truth about why he was banned.

    had nothing to do with our dispute over copyright.

    had everything to do with his violating wordpress' TOS (see COTO TOS in the right column).

    I'll send you the comments if you haven't already seen them.

    COTO is doing serious and positive work here and cannot be shut down because of one foul-mouthed bigot.

    he's got his own site where he can post whatever he wants. let him take the sole risk of getting banned from wordpress, instead of putting all of us at risk.

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  7. "I’ll send you the comments if you haven’t already seen them."

    Yes... I would like to see them.

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  8. Well actually, I read the comments after they were sent to the spam filter.

    Like I said, mistakes have been made, tempers flared. But like I also said, these kinds of disagreements happen all the time.

    We shouldn't take it personally. Individual comments can be removed if they are that offensive. We don't have to target each other.

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  9. As would I. If you can, I would appreciate it.

    Thanks

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  10. Excuse me.....but after seeing the vulgarity of the comments that were posted about women being "c"s and the emails that came calling another woman a "dyke"............not to mention the absolutely gratuitous filthy language.........I can not think of anything I would want to hear at this point from the writer of those comments.

    If COTO intends to reconcile with that writer I will take my own leave. I wouldn't tolerate this on OEN and I won't put up with it here.

    Regardless of how grand any of us think we are.....having someone disagree with you about an issue is not grounds for going off on an egotistical tangent.

    Having re-read all the comments I can see no rational reason for this having escalated to such a degree that such filthy remarks should have been made to anyone.

    In fact........I will remove me myself from your site. I don't need this.

    Marti Oakley

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  11. you haven't seen the comments that got him banned, Scott, for you to describe some disagreement or tempers.

    the comments that got him banned were made in the calm of his evening, over a period of three weeks.

    It has nothing to do with any disagreement.

    so, I emailed you the comments.

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  12. I am very sorry that the possibility of someone returning to a site they contribute to who just might use "bad" language is enough reason for you to remove yourself from the site.

    Perhaps you could just not read his comments. That might be easier, though certainly less dramatic.

    It has been said by smarter people than myself that defending the right of free-speech is meaningless until you understand that the very speech you have to defend is speech you don't LIKE.

    "having someone disagree with you about an issue is not grounds for going off on an egotistical tangent." THAT I agree with. I would also add that it isn't grounds to ban a member either.

    And let me point something else out while we are getting down to brass tacks.

    I have several family members who currently live in trailers: one immediate family member. They drive pick-up trucks, listen to country music, watch Fox News, and don't like what I stand for very much. I also work with people like that. All day long. But Rady's comment about "rednecks" was also out of line.

    Way out of line.

    "Like a typical redneck, a disgrace to humanity that treats all others like shit."

    It's a direct insult to my family and by extension, me. My father might be a "redneck" but he is certainly not a disgrace to humanity. When I read that, I was quite offended. I, as of yet, have not heard anyone apologize for that kind of language.

    Though I may not LIKE it, I will certainly defend her right to SAY it.

    after all, the way I look at it, it doesn't diminish my father at all: though it did do wonders for my opinion of the woman who wrote it.

    I contribute a great deal here. And as you can tell from the above comments, seems like I am not that far out on a limb on this one. You want to ban me for speaking my mind? Is that how this site works now?

    I seem to remember this exact same kind of thing happening Nov 2008... only it was Rob I was having this little chat with, at Op Ed.

    If you want to call this place the type of site that can stand a little internal spat or two, if you want to call it a bastion for free-speech (even the kind we don't like sometimes) then you should bring Cinderman back.

    Tell him he can't rail on about "the Jews", edit his posts if he does that crap again (honestly Cinder... you know what is going on right now, they are just looking for sites to call anti-Semitic... tone it down please), do what you have to, but Cinder is one of us. I remember him back to my days at Op Ed.

    You need to bring him back so we can all put this crap behind us.

    And I am sorry that you were offended. But sometimes that is the price you pay when afford others the same freedoms you expect for yourself.

    I would rather be offended than patronized anyday.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Like I said in the email on online here... I recovered them ALL from the Spam bin. Even the ones he didn't write.

    Were they offensive? Sure. very much so. All of them were.

    But, like I have also said before, I think there is another way to deal with one of our core members who strays a bit from the beaten path.

    I think the value of finding that middle ground lies in the trust that we will all either have, or we won"t have, in COTO.

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  14. I don't care if he's banned or not. I just know I want nothing to do with a man that says this about women:

    ” Unfortunately women have us by the short hairs, and the word “cunt” is only an acronym for “can’t understand normal thinking.” :)

    If he stays, I will ignore the man and any man that agrees with that despicable attitude.

    PS: that smiley after his quote is his not mine..

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  15. I believe Scott is correct.

    I just read his own blog about "Bankers Own This Country," and I don't think calling them gosh-darn so-and-sos would quite get the point across.

    Maybe it's a good idea to burn through this muck so we can cook down what our main priorities may be. My own are de-centralization and re-localization. But I'm not going to "tone down my rhetoric" so I don't "offend" the "centrists."

    Remember, some of us cut loose with some pretty over-the-top stuff during the "other-place" purge. Yes, I found some of the comment content rather creepy... but I hear creepier stuff coming out of the teevee every time I accidentally come in earshot of MSM.

    Kinda reminds me of the Abolitionists before the US Civil War. Could that have been avoided had they "toned down their rhetoric?"

    The Almighty had Her own purposes.

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  16. It's not my fault. I have Turret’s syndrome... or something like that.

    I thought about posting it here, but I didn't know how it would be received.

    http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2009/07/18/the-bankers-own-this-country-its-just-that-simple-banker-asswipes/

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  17. This is completely disingenuous, Scott.

    My comment you quote is an exact quote of what he said about Jews, only I changed the target to make the point of how despicable his words were.

    You are being intellectually dishonest not to recognize irony. And I know you're smart enuf to know what I'm talking about.

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  18. Here's the deal, guys.

    You pick: a foul-mouthed racist, sexist bigot who has posted 3 items to COTO, or your Jewish and female volunteers who have posted over 200 items to COTO.

    You can defend hate speech all you want, but there is a consequence to hate speech and it is that we will leave you to your fouled nest.

    We will take our efforts elsewhere.

    I prioritize treating people with respect over allowing abusive verbiage.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Hey I don't have a problem with foul language. I use it myself.. on occasion. However, Cinder speaks with forked tongue. Not long ago, he reprimanded others for using foul language because he thought it was classless and would scare away potential visitors to our site. Then he goes and calls women the one word that offends nearly every one of us.

    I don't like hypocrites.

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  20. that's all the men here, JG, except Patrick.

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  21. Scott.. that is NOTHING like what we're talking about.

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  22. You're absolutely correct, JG. Potty-mouth waldo was right in front of that finger-wag.

    Me knuckles still smart from the last time somebody thought I was dissing volunteers. I aint defending "hate speech" and I am not dissing volunteers... now applying the duct-tape over me potty mouth and will say no mmmph,,mmph,,mmmph...

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  23. ?? I am unclear regarding the referent for your statement. What's "that's all the men here....."

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  24. Am I not allowed to be offended by what you wrote? Saying so makes me "disingenuous"?

    Well, if that is the case, why did you remove the comment yourself? And why did you also remove it from the spam bin, when you left the worst of Cinderman's for everyone to see?

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  25. yeah.... that's a little harsh if you ask me. "all the men here" are now Cinderman? We ALL say things like that?

    Is that really the way Rady sees it?

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  26. Yea Rady, you're right. So much for unity, huh? Patrick is a class act.

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  27. I didn't say it was. I am just responding to what Waldo said. But it does have some bad language, so I didn't know whether or not it is something that people would want to put up. That's all.

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  28. mmmph mmm mmmphhhhh...!!!

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  29. sorry, Richard, you didn't weigh in; my mistake.

    So, what is your take?

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  30. Well, nobody's perfect.....I made a mistake once myself......
    what works for me in this particular universe is pretty simple. When I encounter a poster who's messages are redundant, offensive, unintelligible,
    boring or otherwise a waste of my precious time, I skip 'em, and move on. Life is short. I DO enjoy the exchange of ideas and POV's too much to drop out at this point. I find that the more I write, the more I have to say. And many times you don't know what you think about something until you write about it......(Garrison Keillor)....
    And somewhere else it is said "what someone else thinks about you is none of your business".
    Peace....out.

    ReplyDelete
  31. This is the kind of thing that kills. We started a site and got different folks to come to a place where we could post openly and without censure.

    We had to do one thing and one thing only. NOT VIOLATE THE TOS and AVOID GETTING OUR PLUG PULLED.

    Some people cannot help themselves but cannot live without drama and turmoil. They should opt out and audition for BIG BROTHER or some other genre where they can exhibit their lowest attributes.

    Violating the TOS and risking the site being pulled is selfish and inconsiderate. Using the foulest of language and attacking any member over a comment is pedestrian and crude.

    I thought we had the core here that can rise above this boorish episodes. Cinderman exhibited bad judgement regarding the rules of Wordpress with the Israel comment and the most tasteless of Ad-Feminam insults.

    Cinderman wants a posted apology for the interuption to his membership privileges and I personally rejected that stipulation.

    I'd like him reinstated with a clear understanding of the minimum standards we have to have to avoid a "NO REASON BANNING" from WP. If an apology is necessary he can make it privately to the women members.

    I'd like everyone to stay but if you have plans to test the limits of Wordpress' TOS and risk getting us getting pulled by the use of this kind hostility, hate speech or insults, pack up, send me your email and request and I will clean your box out personally, thank you and wish you well.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Gee Scott, I didn't hear any of you condemn Cinder for his words. ALl I heard you do was defend his despicable misogyny and racism in the name of "free speech". Gimme a break.. This is no oen but do you really want to defend a man that disrespects women like that? gimme a break.. this is not about free speech.

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  33. done with you, Scott. you are being deliberately deceptive, twisting my words to your advantage. I'm disappointed.

    But, like I said - if you guys all believe protecting a sexist, racist bigot's comments here is more important than the work we women and Jews have done for COTO, just let me know.

    Is free speech to be abusive more important than treating volunteers with respect?

    Just let me know.

    Is that your priority here?

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  34. Scott.. we all hate banksters. You were cursing the banksters not the entire opposite sex! BIG DIFF ! That article is just peachy keen with me!

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  35. ah. got it.

    You know, I have said several times that Cinder went way over the line. But that doesn't matter, now does it? Now it is all about something else. I am lumped in with the sexist because I disagree with the way this has been handled? Even though I have NEVER written ANYTHING like what he has said?

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  36. Just to clarify: you said in another comment that you didn't see where I called out Cinder for his comments...

    "Were they offensive? Sure. very much so. All of them were."

    "Individual comments can be removed if they are that offensive."

    "Tell him he can’t rail on about “the Jews”, edit his posts if he does that crap again (honestly Cinder… you know what is going on right now, they are just looking for sites to call anti-Semitic… tone it down please), do what you have to, but Cinder is one of us."

    So in all fairness, I think I hopefully have expressed my disdain for some of the things that he has said. However, I stand by my previous comment: it is just that kind of speech that HAS to be defended, as uncomfortable as it may be.

    I certainly hope that holding that belief doesn't automatically make me an anti-Semite or a sexist here, but that is how I feel about it.

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  37. Scott.. sometimes the sound of silence is more deafening than the crack of thunder. I must have missed the sentence where you said he stepped way over the line?

    "Cinderman may be a lot of things, but he damn sure isn’t TRYING to hurt this site or the people that serve it. A disagreement is just that. Gotta let the little shit slide people"

    No big deal. A disagreement? A little shit? It would just be nice to see the men of coto defend the honor of the women here instead of bending over backwards to defend a woman hater.

    That's all I'm sayin :)

    ReplyDelete
  38. It is not simply WordPress' TOS (as I am sure most know). It is, more importantly, the way in which our discourse is hoped to influence folks (other than ourselves) who may .. may happen upon the site and become informed.

    I would prefer that what is presented here is of such a quality and nature that visiting folk are positively influenced. (I want most of all .. I mean really most of all, that we help people wake up. Time is running out.) That need not exclude the occasional rant. But I am afraid the Cinderman was light years over the top with his comments. And the effect upon most any visitor of reading his comments would have been to exit in disgust never to return. We cannot afford that. Either as a site or as group seeking to spread truths to people and hoping somehow to avoid the crap heading our way ... indeed, already flowing over us from the ptb.

    As an aside, I never use the 'c' word in any setting. Probably -partly- because I grew up in the 50's and 60's with the nickname 'Dick'. 'Dick' Nixon was the final straw. :-) Richard is a fine name.. I just don't know how they ever got 'Dick' out of it. ('thanks' mom and dad ... )

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  39. Posted apology? For what exactly? Where's his apology?

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  40. lol Richard. You know, we just had this discussion at work the other day. How DID they get Dick out of the name Richard? Or Jack from John? They both have the same amount of letters for cryin' out loud. Makes no sense. But I digress.

    Richard, (you are definitely not a Dick) I expected nothing less than a thoughtful and insightful comment from you. Thank you for "getting it."

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  41. Jerseyg:

    It's odd that all of a sudden, I can't seem to find the "REPLY" button next to your comments or RADY's.

    So I guess I will have to respond like this.

    "No big deal. A disagreement? A little shit? It would just be nice to see the men of coto defend the honor of the women here instead of bending over backwards to defend a woman hater."

    Come on now. again, please, just find ONE thing that I have said or done that is sexist in ANY way, aside from my attempt to point out that we shouldn't be banning each other, for what I can see so far is two tasteless comments.

    I am not defending a "woman hater"... I am defending the integrity of this site.

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  42. thank you, Richard. I would have felt like I entered the Twilight Zone if you backed up John's "right" to be abusive.

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  43. Jersey - thank you:

    "No big deal. A disagreement? A little shit? It would just be nice to see the men of coto defend the honor of the women here instead of bending over backwards to defend a woman hater.

    "That’s all I’m sayin"

    totally agree with this sentiment.

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  44. I never defended his choice of language, in fact I suggested early on that his more offensive comments should be removed.

    But like Puddy apparently feels, I am, and have been, advocating for his reinstatement.

    "Were they offensive? Sure. very much so. All of them were.

    But, like I have also said before, I think there is another way to deal with one of our core members who strays a bit from the beaten path.

    I think the value of finding that middle ground lies in the trust that we will all either have, or we won”t have, in COTO."

    ReplyDelete
  45. Again... these are TWO comments that I have already stated could and should have been removed.

    We are here because of banishment from OpEd. Unceremonious, banishment.

    The reason they gave? They said our comments reflected badly on their sites' image.

    We thought at that time, that OpEd made a mistake. We thought that mistake reflected badly on OpEd News and thus diminished their integrity.

    What are we doing now? I simply advocate, like Puddy does, for his reinstatement.

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  46. I agree Richard, but that is our opinion and does not seem to reflect the consensus. I don't even want to censure that freedom here. I just hope the restraint by a group that I see as highly intellegent, informed and clever people can resist that platitude.

    Some here have spent a lot of time and effort. You know some psychology and human nature Richard. Something someone hasn't worked for has less value to them. Some here may just be passing through and unconcerned about the fate of this project. We have to be especially aware if certain personal disregard by some for what others have invested time, money and effort in will be at risk.

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  47. Trust? I have absolutely no trust in Cinderman. He's shown the women here his true colors. I actually relish the thought of his coming back. Let him make one more nasty remark about my gender and my sisters and I will be ready to pounce. Right Rady?

    ReplyDelete
  48. I wasn't very clear in my earlier post inasmuch as I was focus on the effect of such language upon the site's credibility.

    In addition to working as a neuropsychologist I also am a therapist. I work with many abused girls/women (and boys/men) and other victims with PTSD. btw, many abused women prefer men therapists - for a variety of reasons but in particular because some felt abandoned by their mothers who 'permitted' the abuse to continue (often, of course, they had no choice either).

    But I digress. The really bad thing about the word 'c...' is that it reflects an underlying misogyny. It's the kind of word abusive husbands use along with violent subjugation against and control of women; (heaven knows I know from all the terrible histories I've been told). There is no excuse for using it.

    That word provides a great deal of information about the person expressing it.

    Am not trying to malign anybody .. but merely giving the sense a psychologist understands from that behavior.

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  49. Scott, before I go to bed, I must tell you that no one here, that I know of, ever said anything half as nasty as Cinder has here.

    We were banned mostly because we were bashing Obama and the dems and saying there was only one corporate party. We were banned because we rained on Obama's parade. We were called the duopoly crowd and the darkness gallery by RK. We were banned because we were gathering a huge following and Klown Kar couldn't stand that.

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  50. Richard.. exactly my point all along. There is way too much hatred and anger behind that word. Only the crudest and angriest of men use it. And when they do, they mean it.

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  51. Richard, my father-n-law's name is also Richard, and my mother-n-law God bless her, she always called him Dick. "Hey Dick!" She would exclaim. Almost everyone except his children of course, called him Dick. He fought in the Battle of the Bulge and received several medals. Being called Dick (I prefer Richard or Rich) didn't seem to bother him though. He's a great guy.

    Having said that, and with regard to the "C" word. I despise that word!

    My father (an Irish Catholic) use to call my mom it, with other vulgar expletives. The "C" word is a horrible, horrible word. Hearing it when you're about nine years of age, and then to include it in your own vocabulary, and to use it on the street when you're ten and eleven because you think it's "cool" as many other children did? Tell me about it! Growing up in the city and under that sort of environment was extremely tough. At the time I really didn't understand the hurt this wretched word could cause.

    Men who use the "C" word are cowards! No women should never, ever be called it.

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  52. If I could digress for a moment to say kudos to whom ever created the scrabble graphic.

    That! Is good.

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  53. I simply want you and the others to understand, that when I say I am defending what I perceive (right or wrong) to be the integrity of the site, I am not defending Cinderman's use of the "C' word. They are two separate issues.

    Nor for that matter am I defending what he said about the "Jews".

    Put it this way. You can argue that what Cinder said was WAY worse that what any of us said that caused our dismissal from OpEd... and you would be correct...

    to us...

    But, pretend for a moment, that you just happen to be one of those braindead Obamaites out there... pretend that you love God and Country and are deeply offended when someone suggests we need a new investigation into 9/11... or that Obama is really just a tool of the globalists from the CFR...

    Would you then not be highly offended by what we are trying to tell them? Of course you would. And if, like it has been pointed out many times before, these Obamatrolls have actually turned their faith in him into some kind of twisted religious zealotry, then the "offense" you would feel would affect you deeply.

    Now, as silly as that sounds... the fact that we were right and Cinderman wrong, doesn't really factor in. Because that is how WE see things.

    We were removed because our point of view, right or wrong, offended others and threatened their perception of reality (at least that is what they SAID... I have made it clear that RK removed certain people for purely selfish reasons, giving this reason as an excuse.)

    Do you see my point?

    Removing an offensive comment is one thing. Yelling at a COTO mate about making it is one thing...

    ... but banning offensive POINTS OF VIEW is another entirely.

    Because ultimately, where does it end?

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  54. This saddens me, to see this so soon.

    If we came with any sense of unity, it would have been challenged before we arrived.

    Rules, always "rules" ... unless of course you can "own" your own site.

    And yes, who amongst us is without sin?

    And than there's that simple matter of manners, or manners bigger brothers, diplomacy and statesmanship.

    How far would have Nixon gotten if he gave speeches using language he used everyday in normal conversation?

    "That's right folks, if I'm elected I'll make sure everyone has a Jew-bastard lawyer as good as mine. Henry, bring your Jew-ass out here ..."

    Or how far would half the literary talents gone if at every appearance they acted out their private persona?

    I can see Hemingway on Art Linkletter's Show now, drunk and exposing himself.

    What it is, is a "public forum." As such, one should try to be respectful of this fact. What one says in private emails in one thing, what they bring to public viewing should come, even in the most heated of arguments, with some measure of restraint.

    If not, your message gets lost in divisiveness of language.

    And even more insidious, those that wished to shatter any unity we thought we had coming in are going to take this turn of events and milk it dry.

    Remember, near everyone of us were banned from another site not long ago, and we can debate the reasons, and we have, but the one reason that most offended everyone was that we were getting banned for "what" we were saying, and not "how" we were saying it.

    Over the years I've learned to quell my speech. This lesson was sometimes hard earned through split-lips, other times it would just take a cringe. And you learn to get respect by giving it, the first to step over that line loses any right, barring an apology, to be given any further respect.

    Now this also comes in, because I'm as paranoid as one should rightfully be in this day and age, if we were banned for "what" we were saying in one site, what's stopping those that wished to shut us up from creating division in this site?

    But before we go down that path.

    I found nothing in the exchange that started all this offensive.

    I did however find what was written in private emails that I've read to be.

    Which saddens me. For C-man goes a ways back in this little band of renegades, and of this bunch he would be one of the most contentious, if not cantankerous of the lot, which although is a spice you don't want a lot of, yet none the less without it makes for a plainer dish.

    It's probably too late for apologies now. But if it weren't, I would give C-man a chance to do so, not for what he originally said, although I have my disagreements with what he did say, but for what was expressed in subsequent exchanges.

    And not seeing that path open, do to the nature of the character of those involved, I don't see this coming to a good end.

    Which leads back to my other question, if we've been set-up for this confrontation who was the plant?

    Maybe it's no one? Maybe a group of strong-willed, individualists with egos as big a barges are doomed from the get-go to implode?

    I don't know the answer to this, I just know it saddens me.

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  55. "Now this also comes in, because I’m as paranoid as one should rightfully be in this day and age, if we were banned for “what” we were saying in one site, what’s stopping those that wished to shut us up from creating division in this site?"

    yep. 'bout sums it up.

    ReplyDelete
  56. I didnt see the spam box or whatever, what I got as a mail to my personal inbox and the words used in it, to describe gender, and race I find un necessary and nasty and I replied expressing that, and I would have removed such, myself, as an editor.
    as this followed- i gather ?from a post removed that risks all of us loosing our site, it was more than a little vitriolic and OTT.
    I dont care what race gender or bloody planet we are all from, I DO care that we keep our gripes with those who seek to harm humanity and the world we live on! aimed and effective at THEM.
    Name calling and personal attacks, are futile and downright stupid. it does nothing for any of us what so ever!
    as pointed out above, anyone new coming here and reading comments of that nature will not be back,
    I personally find the unremoved foul language insults and inappropriate stuff that get left on AJ's site is so annoying it makes reading comments almost not worth while, which then makes you consider if a reply is also worth the bother? as theres so much dross to wade past to do so.
    Do we? want our page to end up like that? I do hope NOT.
    cinders may have his opinion, we all do , or we would'nt be here:-)
    but I do think that he has crossed a line in personal insults. medicis take on it is a good one, it does show a great deal, and it is NOT pretty.
    would Mrs?? cinders appreciate the same abuse from (basically) a stranger on a siteat work whatever ? or is there no mrs Cinders, and if not , maybe she left for that same attitude problem?
    we can say plenty without getting nasty surely?

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  57. Jeez...I leave you guys and gals alone for a couple days and, whammo...the chemistry becomes explosive.

    The only thing I find objectionable about the banning of an abusive lunatic is that this dialogue did not occur, openly, prior to a decision to ban said lunatic.

    I think we should be extraordinarily careful about banning writers in this forum...certainly in the first year of our exile from a place that didn't really exist in the first instance.

    Lumping males into a pile, as much as we might appreciate this manifestation of "man love" does not serve the point any better than lumping individual women into derogatory stereotypes.

    When men get together and talk openly, they tend to desensitize themselves to the concerns women have about our language and behavior towards them. Men have a similar concern about women, often less eloquently expressed.

    How about this: before a decision to ban, we put the offending comments to an open vote? I'm not fond of unilateral decisions so the appearance of one is disappointing to me.

    If the TOS is the issue, then the person might still need to be banned, but at least we'd have some valuable information with respect to the mix of writers and the existing TOS as mandated by WP.

    Rady and Puddy put this thang together and it's doing well. I trust their judgment and their abilities to come to consensus. But I also appreciate and understand the need for some to feel heard and acknowledged when making an important decision like a banning. So let's try a little more transparency...whaddya think?

    As far as banning is concerned...I'm thinking we need a "primate" house where sanctioned writers can take a time-out and express themselves for all to see. They'll either grow or go. They get voted in and they'll need to be voted back out.

    One of us must have a spare domain and server space that we can link to. That keeps the writers tethered to us, but protects us from violating WP's TOS. Or our own.

    As far as our conjoint "integrity" is concerned, I'm sympathetic to the sentiment. But that is all that it is. Some people are compelled to destroy consensus and unity in a group...perhaps an attention-getting maneuver, I don't know. But these folks can't be expected to ever be a part of a unified, adult consensus. Off to the primate house they must go....

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  58. Bravo Oz, well said.

    By my count, so far, there are three men here that get it. Three men that understand Cinder smeared some of his own coto members with his vitriolic words. How do such hate filled outbursts foster unity within the group or promote our cause ?

    Thank you to all 3 for understanding that and speaking out.

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  59. V, I think you nailed it. I don't know how or if that would work but the "primate house" sounds good. Though reptile house might be a more fitting title.

    Banning? I'm not for it. I'd rather see him come back and face the music.

    Btw, isn't your avatar Walter from "the big lebowski"?

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  60. I agree Munich.. Patrick must have stayed up all night working on that one !!

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  61. I see. Now I'm a sexist pig because I disagree somewhat with a unilateral editorial decision.

    I also see that someone is taking down their material. Packing up their marbles. Either my way or I hit the highway. Bolloxing up a fine collective effort because one of us foolishly took some troll bait.

    See how easy that was... for THEM? The klown kars of the world gotta be laughing their tookas off. Turning your back on EVERYONE who offered refuge and support when somebody else turned their back on YOU. Nice.

    All over one stinking stupid WORD.

    Oh yeah, it represents bla bla bla yadda yadda yadda. I get the point. DO YOU? Score another one for the Monsantos and the Boeings and the DOWs of the world... because freef freef I aint gonna put up with THIS shit.

    Well, neither am I. So how 'bout if I just bugger off as well.

    I hope you can "educate the masses" from a place that's squeaky-clean and pure and nobody is ever allowed to say anything dumb. You have started the typical circular firing squad that keeps the Fats on top every time. THEY win because YOU can't compromise in any way.

    See ya. It's been fun. Goodbye.

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  62. Common sense, V, as usual. Ape house it should be.

    I bet there are one or two on OEN and those who master them who will be chortling if you start fragmenting over this or anything else, and there are more important things we have to do than bicker.

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  63. Besides, wasn't it that darling Bush who said, "You're either with us or with the enemy"? - Were any of you so stupid as to fall for that then?

    Then I hope nobody is so purblind as to start - or continue - saying that now.

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  64. Waldo. Rady's gone and Cinderman will be back. I'm not leaving. I'm really pissed off at those comments but I'm not giving up on coto. Why are you? Talk about taking your marbles and going home...........

    btw, does free speech only apply to nasty comments and not to those who comment on those nasty comments?? what hypocrisy! I never advocated banning.. just for the record !

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  65. Valid, dunno how you work apehouse. but the bit about fragmenting worries me. How the hell can we as COTO, not individuals per se, ever manage to get and keep real truth news and discussion going if we scatter, if we do, They:-( win.
    Making just a few more aware and forewarned is important.
    Keeping the rules of POLITE, doesnt stop free speech, just makes it BE CIVIL. and WE are supposed to be the civillians:-) remember?
    as opposed to those who Incivilly wish to opress distress and dismiss us.
    They also name call at the first chance I notice, surely we can be above that? huh?
    otherwise we may as well run for office, as we become no better.

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  66. Nope. Free speech is free speech. Even if it's stupid. Limited hang-out for me. I'm gonna stay in the bushes until this all blows over... and I'm talkin' about the stench of a purely egotistical power trip... because that's what it is. We're not talking about "commenting on nasty comments." It wasn't a "comment." It was a "ban."

    And for the "record:" I really object to being called a "sexist" because I don't pile-on to someone for using a harsh word in the heat of the moment. I object to being called "anti-Semitic" for criticizing Israeli atrocities... and I don't like being called a "racist" because I think Bammo is the same-old-same-old.

    I could see this coming with the UN "pluralism" shit, the totally unnecessary implementation of "editorial policy" for a site this embryonic, and hiding behind Wordpress "terms of service." Does all this sound familiar? It should. Rumkowski Rabbits: "...This is a decision that the senior team has struggled with at length. We believe it is the right thing to do to move the site in the direction we want it to go--"

    The perpetrator becomes the victim... and then goes somewhere else to become the perpetrator again. Sound familiar? Gaza? Without going "there," I think Rady's stomping off is cowardly and unprofessional. I think it's petulant and immature. I think it's damaging and unproductive. I think it's totally unnecessary. That's MY opinion... I COULD be WRONG. If Rady wants to argue about it, she can come here and do so.

    Otherwise, I'm just gonna lurk until this thread sinks off the page. It stinks. I don't like it.

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  67. Waldo. I didn't call you a sexist and I'm tired of talking about it as well!

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  68. Yer all tearing Me apart !
    When one soldier dies he is buried and the troops move on. We do not need to lose Rady. She and I do not agree on much but she is an intelligent girl. We need everyone,and we need them to be civil.
    I learned in kindergarten,"its nice to be nice" OK
    Rady dont You dare leave this joint until I have won You over to My way of thinking. Everybody else cut the crap and dish the potty-mouth elsetwise I put My foot so far up yer posteriors you will have to smile for Me to trim My toe-nails !

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  69. Resigning one's position can seem petulant, but not if you think about it from an adult perspective -- one conditioned by the experience of dealing with real people in the real world.

    When I have had to deal with "strong male" personalities who portend dominance and strength in business, there has been only one way of dealing with them that works to stop them in their tracks: bah-bye.

    When it comes to negotiable or behavior that can be compromised on or with, there's room for being cordial, civil and polite.

    But when dealing with behavior that is just plain over the line and cannot be tolerated...sorry...gotta play hard ball. Otherwise the offending personality will just bowl you over and continue dominating the discussion. We've had over 8 years of shouting and frame-bending in the mainstream media...what more evidence do you need to convince you that what I'm suggested has real roots in f2f reality?

    I don't think Rady is just looking at one isolated incident, she's seeing a pattern of behavior. She tolerated it initially, but, when push came to shove, she left.

    What makes this behavior non-petulant has to do with the nature of the web and the fact that all a person has is their "identity" and "its reputation." The same thing used to happen in DC when a cabinet member had a serious disagreement with a policy advocated by the President -- they resigned.

    Petulant? I don't think so. It's just as likely a sign of respect both for the policymaker and for the person who cannot, in good conscience, advocate for the policy.

    We're getting lost in our words here and for communicators that can be deadly. We can't use abstract logic to render a decision on an issue that words have yet to adequately describe. For example, the notion of tolerating the intolerable. This type of discussion always snags the pure logicians and separates them from those who understand words as just semiotic "best guesses" as to what a communicator is attempting to describe.

    What?! We can't tolerate the intolerable?! Why, that's intolerant!

    Blah, blah, blah.

    The fact is, NO ONE can tolerate what is intolerable to them or for them.

    In the 1960's, it was male chauvanism and how to describe, explain and relate to a person's African heritage.

    Now it is not only what we didn't settle in the 1960's, but we've added sexual orientation, gender identity and oppression issues.

    We can no longer tolerate oppression coming from or through one another. It has become intolerable, perhaps because there is so much oppression coming from and through the banksters of the world. We're filled up with crazy and sanity and balance must be restored.

    So if you're having trouble with all the "code switching" that's taken place over the years in a free and fair republic (as opposed to what's been happening in the US of late), sorry. It sucks to be you. Sometimes it sucks to be me. Adults get over it. Eventually.

    I vote for a Primate House rather than an outright ban. We can teach and orient those who are confused and want to understand. If you simply NEED to understand and don't want to, the Primate House is the best you can get from us. And that's because we're trying HARD to keep in touch.

    If we were like others, we'd just cut your cord and not give you a word of condolence or explanation. Closure is nice, but we reserve that for reasonable people who aren't looking for another flank to stick their shive into.

    That's where I'm at. I'll make my choices over the next several days and weeks.

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  70. what the hell happened???

    took a few weeks off because frankly i was a little tired of being accused of being here for nefarious reasons (never figured that one out) and i come back and people are getting banned (personally, if C used the C word to me he'd get a fistful, but banning i dunno about that, especially without some discussion) and rady is "gone." what do you mean "gone" jerseyg? was this a back channel conversation cuz i don't see anything from her about it here.

    trying to understand why this all seemed to spiral downward so quickly. this story sounds awfully familiar.

    the big question is...where do we go from here?

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  71. Oldschool.. Rady left of her own accord. She didn't want to be around someone who spews the kind of stuff cinder has here. She pretty much said "it's him or me' right on this thread but she erased all her comments and posts before she left. I didn't always agree with Rady. I think most of us are more radical than she but she will surely be missed nonetheless.

    I too despise some of the things he's said here but I'll be damned if he's chasin' this chick outta town! I'd rather fight him on the issues than ban him.

    Patrick has offered him a second chance to tame it down but cinder haughttily expects an apology while he makes excuses for his vile words instead of offering his own apology.! lol REALLY??! I MEAN REALLY??!!

    If he bases his coming back on getting said apology, you won't be seeing him around here again, I can promise you that.

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  72. Wow, what a discourse!

    What does a bystander think and say about this?

    There is a ton to be said, but I hope to say it in an ounce...ok, maybe a pound.

    It takes years and lots of experience to learn (accept, acknowledge and respect) that the black man, the red man, and the brown man are equal to the white man, that the China man is equal to the American man, that the Hindu is equal to the Christian, that the woman is equal to the man and that the short man is equal to the tall man.

    In any of the above categories I can find the same faults and the same genius. Part of personal development and self actualization is the understanding of this truth.

    Many people, of all categories fail to learn this. But I see here in this COTO "episode" an opportunity.

    Cman has not only crossed the line of bigotry, but of humanity itself. I don't fault him. I fault his experiences. They are lacking. Is he unaware of the genuis that has been brought to society by the woman and the jew?

    So the opportunity then, is to make him aware. The man (Cman) is intelligent. Teach him.

    Women/jews of COTO can write volumes on the virtues of the woman and the jew. These volumes will be impossible to rebut because for every achievement Cman bestows on the gentile man, his opposition can equal with the achievement of a woman or jew. It's that simple.

    We are all equal! I also agree that this discussion should have preceded any banning.

    btw, I must confess that once, about 15 years ago, I was playing scrabble with my family (mother and four sisters) and I was so desperate for points (the "C" carried 3 or 4 I think), that I actually spelled the "C" word! Should I have been kicked out of the scrabble game?

    Ok, maybe a...ton...

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  73. your scrabble story is very revealing. you were "desperate" and had no other way to win your points. guess cinder is either desperate and can only win points in an argument by attacking OR he is just that vile. either way it doesn't place him in very good light. but as you said there should have been some discussion. i asked once a while back a question basically wondering what the "hierarchy" is here. don't remember what it was, but i recall not liking the answer.

    i do hope btw that your mother and four sisters kicked your ass :-) you're lucky jerseyg and i weren't there!

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  74. p.s. i appreciate the idea of using his words and sentiments as a way to teach. it would actually have been a very good coto moment.

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  75. I forget which one said it, but as they all stared at the word with their jaws on the table, one of them said, "well, it's a word". Trust me, if you and jg had been there, I would have dropped the point for the "n" and just spelled..."cut"...

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  76. I'm sorry,
    I've been a little out of sorts the past few days and heven't been around much. Us ually I can catch up on a couple of missed days and keep abreast but this just threw me.
    I am in favor of banning in some instances. i could never understand why the likes of tom murphy and a couple of others were tolerated but, they were there so I ignored and tolerated them, mostly.
    But once someone is pretty much accepted here I think that's almost a loss of a friend. I deon't know what happened so I'll reserve judgment but I personally don''t give much of a damn about language unless it's direccted at someone here. I believe that we need to be civil with one another.
    Although we have the same thoughts in regard to what we believe is most important to this world we still have individual, some eccentric, some boisterous, and some wilth a flavorful vocabulary.
    Someone I don''t belive shoud remain here is someone who can't tolerate those differences to the point they want to leave.
    Face it, we're all different characters.

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  77. Sorry for all of the typos and spelling.

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  78. I'm sorry Rady.
    If I've ever uttered any degradatin of women I would have been my failure in expaining my statement or out of context.
    I surehope that no one here feels that way about me.
    I still don't knoow all of what cinder said but I don't recall anyone else here who fits that category.
    I'm a little disapointed as I've always felt that you were an extremely open, intelligent, wellspoken person Rad and, though I obviously don't display much formal education, I thought the feeling was
    mutual

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  79. Rady is leaving? Good. She should leave. Cinderman was the THIRD person she banned that I know of.

    Like V's excellent suggestion, no one person (except the person who started this site, Puddy I believe) should feel like they can simply ban someone else, just because they were offended, without consulting at least a majority of the others here.

    I said from the very beginning, from the 4th comment on this thread: though his comment was out of line and should have been removed, Cinderman shouldn't have been banned.

    And that doesn't make me a sexist pig simply for saying so.

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  80. earlier, you said this:

    "speaking as a female, i have to step up and say i don’t think it was fair of rady to lump all the guys in with cinder if they didn’t respond in precisely the “right” way to the situation. that seems sexist in and of itself that they would have to prove themselves because of their gender."

    As a COTO member who was one of those targeted for not "responding precisely the "right" way"...

    ... I wish to thank you.

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  81. "It wasn’t a “comment.” It was a “ban.”

    yep

    "egotistical power trip"

    yep

    "The perpetrator becomes the victim… and then goes somewhere else to become the perpetrator again."

    yep,yep,yep... I could tell you all a story about Nov 2008, when I was banned from Op Ed... what side to you think our ex-perp/victom/perp was on? ... but I will give it a rest.

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  82. Wow: never seen such a respone here on COTO. I agree, if your are typing a response and can't control the urge to use language like that, you should be banned or at least timed out until you can respond with a modicum of decorum. In the heat of a verbal argument, your mouth can get the better of you and say some nasty things. But when you are writing it, you can always go back before posting and change/tone down your language. Not seeing the offending comments but understanding the C word was used, I agree, there is no place for that anywhere. I myself make sure I am critizing a 'group within a group' so to speak and not lump all people of one religion or sex together when I make a point; after all, it's really the black hats vs the white hats in this struggle; and whatever you call them, they are a diverse and multi spectral group from all walks of life, religion amd ethnicity.

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  83. I don't want Rady to leave.
    What C said in the threads were a bit spicy and I acknowledge that the c--- is not a well meaning word in any sense it's not something to be banned over. From personal experience I can identify with one comment and the other I agree with politically though not how it was said.
    What he said in the email was a direct vicious attack and she deserves an apology. I like cinder and don't want him to go but he needs to apologize.
    Rady, it's wrong of you to leave over this. Most of us got here the same way, we were banned. I don't even know why, mostly because I didn't pursue it. When you and jersey invited me along I knew this was where I wanted to go anyway.
    I never expected, perhaps I'm naieve, that this sort of thing would happen here.
    I thought that we could communicate oour way through anything. I knew we weren't oen. We didn't have jerkoffs like boy scout master murphy here, well, for one day maybe but he vanished quicly. That's how I thought we were. Someone with that mentality who just didn't fit would be driven out by majority. No OG's would be banned or quit. We'd discuss it.
    I say John, apologise.
    Rady, put your marbles back.

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  84. lol oldschool.... damn straight.

    Mark: When I just read that scrabble story, I was thinking, I hope your mother and sisters hit you upside the head for that one!

    I really do like your answer Mark. Another man who respects women enough to stand up for them when they are being slammed :) Thank you.

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  85. Scott? If you are talking egotistical you must mean cinderman..... right?

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  86. So Rady is gone?

    So who is the agent?

    Was C-man the easy target? The "fall-guy?"

    COTO is not an easy idea. It's truth laid bare. Not pretty under current circumstances.

    Everything about the Beast is meant to silence us. Those that wish to do so will try to fulfill their task as swifthly as possible.

    Is it both of them?

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  87. You got me Michael,
    I'm tired and confused.
    This shit reminds me too much of politics.
    I'll tell you one thing tho, If this is going to become a censored site,, as oen did,, I'll hit the fuckin road too.
    G'nite Brother

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  88. Coalition Of The ObviousJuly 21, 2009 at 1:27 AM

    COTO would take one Rady to 20 of you, Scott. Any time. Any day.

    And this is the first person she banned from COTO, so go spew your crap on your own site.

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  89. That really doesn't seem to be the general consensus here now does it?

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  90. seconded!!:-)
    and well put Peter.

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  91. why are comments that do not violate any tos being deleted from this site?

    who is doing it and why?

    i posted several last night on korn's post where people were also discussing this situation and they are all gone this morning.

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  92. For whatever is worth (and since I'm coming in at the tail end of this discussion) I'm glad Rady is gone. She quickly and without prior notice, turned into the Rob Kall of COTO. Makes you wonder who was right and who was wrong in that rokus, eh?

    Rady took entirely too much creative license to decide over the lot and that was wrong. Nobody made her in charge, she just took over! I stopped posting because it became an outright tug of war with her: nothing I posted pleased her or met with her approval and she actually had the audacity to preach, scold and patronize me for me. Hmmm...naw, I'm a tad to old for that shit! So, I told her so and stopped. Also told her that I have plenty of other places where I can post and make a positive impact on others - from the NYT to the Huffington Post - I don't need COTO and, I must certainly don't need Rady, the Nazi.

    I can only envision that the site will be better off without Rady. Rob Kall was right after all. Ain't it funny how the truth has a way of rearing its head whether we like it or not?

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  93. No, Rob Kall was not right. Not entirely.

    He tossed out the good with the bad in order to refine the image of his site. But he accomplished nothing in that process but alot of hard feelings.

    I don't like how Rady responded. I don't like how I respond sometimes. But as hard as I have tried to wish myself a better past, I have yet to succeed.

    I used to think drugs and alcohol would make me happy. Now I know that nothing can make me happy.

    I'm settling for reasonably content most of the time. Part of that decision requires me to ACTIVELY seek out and identify the blessing behind everything, difficult or joyful. As well as the potential curse.

    I would like to see COTO move on.

    So...Jesus is coming, LOOK BUSY...write something! Create something! Find a way! Chart the Chorus! Strike up the band!

    You are the change in the world that you would like to see.

    Always been, always will be.

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  94. sisterb, can you post articles directly to this site or does it have to get "reviewed?" if so, who is doing the reviewing now? for all those who just want to move on don't you think these questions are important? rady didn't just leave she took all of her (and much of your) content with her.

    at the least, contributors like yourself should be able to post directly. if the content doesn't meet the standards of the "crew" then i'm sure it will be obvious. seems like that's a good way of refining the content here. open, honest feedback not one or two people deciding what's best for the whole.

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  95. volaar, yes! so many people ask if I am happy, I have replied for quite a few years now, I don't look for happy, Contentment is so much better.
    a warm fire, a bed to sleep in, enough to eat, and clothes to wear. I have my own home (well 80% of it) 20%is the banks.:-(
    i have land to grow, a bore which is riches indeed, and my hounds love me.
    kookaburras singing morn and night,
    my car goes, and the sun rises still.
    pretty good really.

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  96. I wonder did rady "take over" or was it cos no one else either volunteered asked, or was willing to put the time and effort in?
    a different view is not scolding is it? if I ask you to try and see it another way, after you put your view forward? isn't that called discussion?
    If she removed some pretty gross comments, that stopped us looking 3rd rate to others, and no- I only got the one email so I have no idea what else was said, but from down here all I know is I will miss her posts and her presence.
    and I would like to see less sledging!
    it's in bad taste and needless.

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  97. Barbara:

    With all due respect, I don't appreciate your banter any more than I like you. If you want to ask something, ask, but don't be so cynical, sarcastic and malicious and make such stupid little remarks to show how above all you are. In case you didn't get that I DON'T LIKE YOU EITHER. You're boring and have nothing to contribute to the general population on this site, IMOH.

    I've never taken notice of you, Barbara, trust me, I tried but couldn't even get past your first sentence, each time, I was put to bed invariably. I have no idea, nor do I care, about what happened between you and Rob, however, as I'm finding out whoever complaints or got it from him, seems to have deserved it. Apparently, that includes you!

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  98. Oz:

    I offered to help. I stated my shortcomings (technology) but pointed out that I had other strong skills which I'd love to contribute. She ignored me. In fact, as some point, she made a little comment to the effect of "and I'm including Sister Begonia...blah blah blah" - I found it pretty condescending that she'd do that as if it were a privilege or an honor and not simply the democratic thing to do.

    FYI - I didn't post any gross comments. I posted links to articles in multiple topics which I felt were of interest to the community; however, Rady, seconded by Barbara, decided not to allow them because "they were links to the mainstream media and blah blah blah" - She also took it upon herself to delete pics I had posted because they would offend someone new (again, favoring the views of one person over another) and NOOOO! they were not indecent or ponographic pictures, they're were pics of the Pope in front of a Nazi flag.

    So, there, we're all entitled to our opinion but censorship but any other name is still censorship.

    There's much more I want to say on this but I'll have to come back as I have a plane to catch soon.

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  99. hi sister, wasn,t swiping at you dear:-) i referred to the insults in the email i received only as I never saw others. yes I do remember a reference to offensive swastika pic but wasn,t sure what and why on that one.
    I have to admit maybe its an aussie thing but stuff like that doesn,t raise a eyebrow here, swastikas hated, and unless youre catholic..the popes ( any pope) isfair game for any bad taste jokes, as they are NOT popular over here.
    and as hes been doing the world tour and chatting the banks, being suckered by monsanto etc etc I can,t see any changes soon:-) way too in our faces and a bad prior record..
    Maybe I am too much the laid back aussie steroetype too? I will follow a link and if I dont like what i see or read I just go.If it was sent to me, maybe I,d be less happy.
    hope the trip goes smoothly.

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  100. At this point I'd like to know just who the fuck on this sight is still posting over at oen and why.
    I don't think thaat's too much information as I don't trust the guy one iota and if these people remain, I won't.

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  101. I will tell you that comments are being removed right now. Erased. This has become a censored site. Rady got mad and stormed off, and now, since she apparently didn't get what she wanted (everyone begging her to come back) apparently this "COTO" member person (sounds a lot like Rady to me) has admitted she is removing comments. Some of oldschool's comments are gone and some of mine.

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  102. Thanks Barbara,
    I'd like to believe that everyone here would be as forthright.
    As it is I feel as though kall and his kids are overr there laughing at what a juvenile pack af asses we are. I thought that we were above this kind of shit and I'm pretty disappointed at the way this whole episode is transpiring.

    And why are the options to have comments replied to directly turned off?

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  103. Oldschool:

    Theoretically, you can post directly to this site. In reality, Rady was censoring everything people were posting, therein my problem with her. So, I started posting to my blog instead but, of course, the traffic and exposure is not the same.

    See, one of my biggest problems was that there were no rules for posting and, it appeared to me as if Rady was taking it upon herself to make them up as we were going along. Y'all can think or do as you please but that to me is censorship, a dictatorship of sorts and not a situation I want to be in and I told her that. In my opinion, she just took over and made herself ruler of the roost whether we liked it or not. So, I totally agree with you that it should be a discussion on the open forum for all the members to decide and that is most certainly not what Rady was doing. Again, that was my complaint and why I stopped posting, it was easier for me to avoid the aggravation and frustration of it all. The sad thing is that I was probably the member submitting the most to the forum which is probably why she zeroed on me too.

    On my end, I'm not concerned with what she took as nothing I've posted was original by, rather, I was posting links to other articles which I felt were of general interest to the COTO community.

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  104. Oz:

    Ha ha! You sound just like me...that's too funny!

    I usually say that I stopped looking for happiness (or perhaps gave up on that) a long time ago and have now settled for peace. Every day I walk out of my job still employed and my car starts, is a good day. You have your hound and I've got my garden, I love my flowers and they love me. :) What more can I ask for?

    Sad how we get to a point in life in which we have to settle with satisfied by the most minimals of things, eh?

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  105. "Any day above ground and vertical is a good day"
    from "World's Fastest Indian". I think the ability to stop and smell the roses, appreciate the little things is the key to happiness. It is that momentary connection with a sense of childlike wonder, breathless awe, perceiving the miraculous
    in a tiny flower or the grip of a newborn child, which pulls us out of ourselves and engages our heart in the world, making us participants, not mere observers. Is happiness something that happens to you or is it something that you do? The same question can be asked of love. Is it something that happens to you or is it something that you do? I submit that the human heart is like a garden and that it requires the nurturing, gentle
    guidance of wisdom in order to blossom and bring forth the fruits of happiness and love. Fruits which we cannot possess, but only give away. Thus the goal is not happiness itself, but the art of mindfulness. Be Here Now. In this infinitely brief but eternal present we will know who we are.

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  106. I've missed most of this food-fight because my cable connection was down.....but the way COTOCREW is going I find I have less and less interest…was already drifting off before the flap and my cable meltdown. I’m not burning any bridges, just letting you all know my input will probably be reduced.

    Like all of you I guess, I’m not into censorship at all. But what can you do in a public space when the assholes suck all the oxygen out of the room? I like to share information and ideas. Those who want to vent or show-off are just boring.

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  107. sisterB , actually when you really stop and think,
    what is Sad is the society we live in telling us to keep wanting more than we really need,
    be it furniture, toys,home size, food, friends...see the facebook brags. I refuse to join it. and I find it odd when people want to add me? to yahoo too.
    The small and vital things are those we need to treasure the most, from them, all the rest can follow , if you choose, but nowdays when people offer new/ big /bright or debt involved deals, I just shake my head and ask Why??
    Because I can, is how many see it...for me it's Not that I could,
    but more if I should..
    ie too much also means more work to maintain it all.

    My sister just lost 100k off her retirement, she is having fits as she planned a comfortable income, ie almost a working pay rate.
    I suggested that the pension is enough to get by on if you own your home and have all the mod cons already..and did she freak!
    I have the better life, ok I never eat out ,go to pics,buy new anything , no holidays etc, but I also have waaay less stress and demands on me.
    I get by on half the minimum wage, and have done since I got very Ill, it's just a matter of expectations, and sadly too many people expect far too much, as a right! and do not seem to realise it as a priveledge. ie kids expecting posh cars and brand new brand name stuff.
    People see me as poor,
    I see them as deluded:-) blinded by hype.

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  108. Love that quote! is worlds fastest indian a book? or a pic?

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  109. Oz:

    The US and Australia have one thing in common: English settlers? Need I say more?

    And, for the record, I ain't American, something I hold with great pride.

    I know that you wouldn't get the joke about the 'shrimp on the barbie' thing but it's a reference to a popular 80s commercial for Fosters beer done by Paul Hogan (then Crocodile Dundee) where he appeared in full garb in a back yard, advertising the beer, towards the end of the commercial he says "and I'll throw a shrimp on the barbie for ya" - Ha! I always thought it was funny for some reason.

    And thanks for the invite, I'd love to go to Australia. In fact, many years ago, I met a couple from Victoria and became good friends, we nearly made the trip to visit them. We kept in touch for many years but the friendship finally fizzled when I went thru the divorce - didn't have time for much of anything but work and court then. Anyway, he was (by his own account) the oldest surfer in Australia and the stories he had to tell about the ocean... A really awesome couple!

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  110. Its a great movie, starring Anthony Hopkins, a Kiwi motorcyclist who has
    an ancient Indian bike which he takes to Bonneville to try for a world speed
    record. The flick gets five stars from me. You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll cheer.
    No explosions, no chase scenes, no profanity. It offers a reflection of courage
    and humanity we could all use.

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  111. Thank's a bit there oz.
    Finding out how some people really feel is refreshing. It sucks to go on pretending that some two face bigot is really a friend. Fifures she'd go for a "commercial" from the telly. I've never seen it because I don't watch. It poisons your mind and gives false perceptions of the news, "commercials" and people from other lands.

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  112. C,
    I think, after this last "exchange", I'm with you.
    I had no idea of the animosity felt by thee brits and other "worldly" members about Americans. I couldn't understand why Barbara felt the way she did about certain people but now I do. This has turned into the most hateful, childish exchange I could imagine and it's caused so many divides I wouldn't know friends from enemies and it seems to have turned as soon as sister shoed up. I'm beginning to believe that the good "sis" is a shill from oen and I think that as long as I see her posting I'll not partake. This went fro a two person dispute to an international show down.
    Those of you who feell the way the almighty infallible sister does can sove your shrimp up yoour ars and sit that on your fuckin barbi.
    See Ya.

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  113. And, to prove my point, Peter, you had to open up your mouth which, from where I'm looking at, is 100% bigger than your brain and, to boot, you had to put your foot in it!

    Yes, it's people like you that have shown me what Americans are. If that makes me ignorant, biggoted, generalizing and yaddah, yaddah, yaddah, just wait, cause it gets a hell of a lot better: I'll bend down and you can kiss my Cuban ass!

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  114. Lay off the booze and put down the bong, will ya?

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  115. I deliberately put that bio out there (it's all the truth) for the same reason I grew my hair long in the 60's.
    It was the best way to identify the bigots.

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  116. Sister, can post this stuff on OPED? We were banned for less than this. Get it off your chest here but don't expect it go out of this hole.

    Not sure if you care for anyone on this site, but it's coming through loud and clear. The comment you made regarding all Americans was another example of a TOS violation.

    Save your time and fingers and just tell us what it is. Read the rules again. I think you are just singing your swan song. Am i right?

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  117. Geez SB ... Instead of ripping into fellow members of coto why don't you take that anger and put it into an article about your favorite corporation that you love to hate.

    After all, isn't that why we are all here? To blast the PTB's and not the little guys, like us?

    You're not a real nun.. stop acting like one !!!!!

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  118. People should be able to dispute another's ideas or opinions without descending to this juvenile behavior and name-calling.

    We don't need that waste of space there.

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  119. On second thought, Sister: be gone.

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  120. peter, honest we (aussies)don't hate you all:-) just the leadership and the big businesses we get to deal with, oh and dragging our fellas into most of the stupid wars!
    as I said above, we too have our share of people who don't seem to get it that we ARE all( supposedly) the same species, with feelings that can be hurt, and choices of life etc we may not follow.
    the name calling and insults happening, are needless, hurtful, and non productive, except for causing hurt and dissent.
    whats funny is that we, most of whom came from pommy stock, also don't think much of em:-) on a bad day.
    on a good day? we give em a COLD beer:-)

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  121. Hey jersey! I’m back, now we can duke it out in public! I’ll be posting a rebuttal in a day or two, then you can have at me then. You take the high road like you’re some sorta prima donna. I have little tolerance for bs, and I’m prepared to buck the tide of arrogance, misunderstanding, innuendo, and plain childish behavior by other coto members. It’s easy to beat someone up when they can’t fight back. In fact, plain chicken shit in my book. You have no idea who I am. And your arrogance will only bite you in the ass. And that's a fact. I'm a man of my words. Most of which I admittedly don't mince. Life is short, so let's be blunt. And then maybe we can move on to the higher cause for which we are all here and stop wasting time on this meanie (sic) merde.

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  122. John, as a self-declared shit-stirer you clearly love to be the center of attention. Well you've lost mine.

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  123. Yea oz,
    I hear ya.
    I don't care for too many Americans myself but I don't want to hear it from a foreigner, especially one who keeps her brains stored in her ass and goes under the guize of a nun.

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  124. John,
    you're back.
    What jersey just said. Why start out on that foot. You just saw how it ends.
    Welcome back, Brother.

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  125. Only because things were said about me that were simply untrue. I only want to set the record straight - and move on to to the right causes that brought us all together.

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  126. I hear you John,
    I just went through a rift that leaves me fuckin steamin but I said my peace without getting tossed (yet?) and I intend to let it drop, here and now. I know anger Brother, believe me but it's self destructive.
    Try to chill,,, cool?
    Peace

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  127. That's ok laudyms. It has never been my intent in life to make friends or appease the masses, only to seek the truth. If I burn bridges along the way, so be it. I will continue to speak my mind, no matter what the cost. If my words make me the center of attention, well maybe I'm saying something that others want to hear (or don't hear), rather than the usual dribble or benign discourse that gets us nowhere. I've never sought the limelight in life, it has only come my way by what I've done - which has been plenty. My daily output is 3x the avg person. In my personal existence my friends all know me as a hermit, but a provocative one when approached. I don't care. I've faced death many times and I'm still here. Fear keeps me alive.

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